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Subject: Is combat a test? rss

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Lewis
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Does ally like city guide add to strength roll during combat in the city?

Hired muscle was obviously state during combat encounter add dice, what about the city guide. It doesn't specifically say combat, just test therefore does she add to combat roll.

I know if you have multiple weapons, you only choose the highest bonus and may use any other effect. What about allies? Do you choose weapon bonus and then add ally bonus? And if I don't have hired muscle all, can I add the city guide bonus to test in combat roll?
 
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Chick Lewis
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Yes, combat is a test, so you could use the city guide bonus.

However, you can only use one bonus which adds dice to a test, so you cannot use both city guide's and hired muscle's dice together. You can use the reroll from hired muscle in any case.
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Bert McCloud
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chicklewis wrote:
Yes, combat is a test, so you could use the city guide bonus.

However, you can only use one bonus which adds dice to a test, so you cannot use both city guide's and hired muscle's dice together. You can use the reroll from hired muscle in any case.


To solidify this response here is a quote from the reference guide under the "Combat" section.

Reference Guide, page 3 wrote:
During the Encounter Phase, an investigator on a space containing
one or more Monsters must encounter each Monster on his space, one
at a time, in the order of his choice. An investigator resolves a Combat
Encounter by following these steps:
1. Check Monster Effects: The Monster might have effects that alter how
the investigator resolves the combat. It is important to read the Monster’s
effects before resolving any other part of the Combat Encounter.
2. Resolve Will Test: The investigator resolves the Monster’s { test.
• If the Monster’s horror is greater than the test result, the
investigator loses Sanity equal to the difference.
3. Resolve Strength Test: The investigator resolves the Monster’s
} test.
• If the Monster’s damage is greater than the test result, the
investigator loses Health equal to the difference.
• If he passes, the Monster loses Health equal to the test result.
Indicate this by placing a equal number of Health tokens on
the Monster token. The investigator and Monster lose
Health simultaneously.


Emphasis mine.
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Denis
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Just for correctness' sake:
Combat is not a test but includes a series of tests (a Strength and a Will test). Not all rolls made during a combat encounter are necessarily test, the most famous example being the roll to defeat the Color out of Space.

As for bonuses stacking: There is no limitation that is specific to weapons. The only rule you have to remember is that numeric bonuses to a specific skill to not stack no matter what (exception are permanent skill improvements).

You can even combine affects of multiple weapons as long as you apply only one of their skill bonuses.

An example with made up weapons:
You own a weapon that grants +2 Strength and an other weapon that grants +1 Strength and allows you to reroll a die during Strength tests.
You may apply the +2 bonus to your Strength and still reroll one die!
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Michael Dillenbeck
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chicklewis wrote:
Yes, combat is a test, so you could use the city guide bonus.

However, you can only use one bonus which adds dice to a test, so you cannot use both city guide's and hired muscle's dice together. You can use the reroll from hired muscle in any case.


Is this in an updated FAQ? Last time I checked the rules were fairly specific that bonuses do not stack (raw +# from cards) but side effects do stack - so that being in a city with the right investigator gives you +1 die and having the right follower with +1 die results in +2 dice.
 
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Richard
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That is correct. Attribute bonuses do not stack, while re-roll and additional dice effects do stack.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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And that does mean that chicklewis was incorrect for that specific example given (Hired Muscle + Urban Guide (I assume this is what was meant by City Guide)) was incorrect. These cards can be used together as one gives a +1 to Strength Tests with a reroll and the other gives an additional die for any tests while on a City Space (except Other World Encounters). You would not be getting any other bonuses from other +X to Strength effects, though (you would probably pick the highest one of these to use instead of Hired Muscle if you had a better one, and you would still keep the reroll if you did).
 
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Lewis
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Maybe it would be more accurate to say bonus in form of additional dice do not stack with multiple "assets", but other bonus like rerolls still apply.

My mistake was separating the assets into ally and item.
 
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Gregory Yeager
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unless I'm mistaken, the only thing that doesn't stack is +x effects. if you had a +3 asset, a +1 and reroll asset, the urban guide, Lola's extra die, 3 initial skill and 2 improvement points, you could roll ten dice and reroll one of them. the only thing left off would be the +1 in favor of the +3.
 
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Lewis
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coldpheasant wrote:
unless I'm mistaken, the only thing that doesn't stack is +x effects. if you had a +3 asset, a +1 and reroll asset, the urban guide, Lola's extra die, 3 initial skill and 2 improvement points, you could roll ten dice and reroll one of them. the only thing left off would be the +1 in favor of the +3.


I'm confused...
 
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M.C.Crispy
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Ultimate Frog wrote:
coldpheasant wrote:
unless I'm mistaken, the only thing that doesn't stack is +x effects. if you had a +3 asset, a +1 and reroll asset, the urban guide, Lola's extra die, 3 initial skill and 2 improvement points, you could roll ten dice and reroll one of them. the only thing left off would be the +1 in favor of the +3.


I'm confused...
Why so? coldpheasant is correct, +X [SKILL] bonuses are the only bonuses that don't stack. Anything that specifically says that it is increasing your skill for the purposes of a check is non-stacking. Effects that do this are usually Assets, most other Effects talk about "additional dice" and can be considered as modifying your dice pool rather than your skill. (Of course Skill Tokens are the exception here as they do stack with the skill bonus).

Skill bonuses don't stack
Dice Pool modifiers don't stack

It's not quite how the rules phrase it, but it's my mental model and it works for me. Here's what the Ref Guide says

Quote:
Determine Dice Pool: The investigator determines the number of dice he will roll. This number is his dice pool.
• He starts with a number equal to the skill being tested.
• He adds or subtracts the test modifier (the number that follows the skill icon on the effect).
• If he has an Improvement token for the skill being tested, he adds the Improvement token’s modifier.
• He may use one effect that provides a bonus (for example “Gain +3 {”). If multiple effects provide a bonus, he uses only the highest bonus.
• He adds any “additional dice” he gains from effects that apply. Additional dice are cumulative and are in addition to other effects.
 
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Bert McCloud
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mccrispy wrote:
Ultimate Frog wrote:
coldpheasant wrote:
unless I'm mistaken, the only thing that doesn't stack is +x effects. if you had a +3 asset, a +1 and reroll asset, the urban guide, Lola's extra die, 3 initial skill and 2 improvement points, you could roll ten dice and reroll one of them. the only thing left off would be the +1 in favor of the +3.


I'm confused...
Why so? G{coldpheasant} is correct, +X [SKILL] bonuses are the only bonuses that don't stack. Anything that specifically says that it is increasing your skill for the purposes of a check is non-stacking. Effects that do this are usually Assets, most other Effects talk about "additional dice" and can be considered as modifying your dice pool rather than your skill. (Of course Skill Tokens are the exception here as they do stack with the skill bonus).

Skill bonuses don't stack
Dice Pool modifiers don't stack

It's not quite how the rules phrase it, but it's my mental model and it works for me. Here's what the Ref Guide says

Quote:
Determine Dice Pool: The investigator determines the number of dice he will roll. This number is his dice pool.
• He starts with a number equal to the skill being tested.
• He adds or subtracts the test modifier (the number that follows the skill icon on the effect).
• If he has an Improvement token for the skill being tested, he adds the Improvement token’s modifier.
• He may use one effect that provides a bonus (for example “Gain +3 {”). If multiple effects provide a bonus, he uses only the highest bonus.
• He adds any “additional dice” he gains from effects that apply. Additional dice are cumulative and are in addition to other effects.


Hold up; now you're confusing me.

You said "Dice Pool Modifiers don't stack". But the ref guide you quoted says

ref guide wrote:
He adds any “additional dice” he gains from effects that apply. Additional dice are cumulative and are in addition to other effects


That clearly says Dice pool modifiers DO stack. As in, anything that tells you to roll "1 additional die" will be cumulative with other things that say the same thing. I'm assuming just a typo but since there's been other confusion it's best to clear it up!
 
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Sverre Brevik
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There are two ways to add dice to a test:

1: Cards that increase the Skill you are testing. For example, Hired Muscle, which gives +1 Strength. These DO NOT STACK. If you have Revolver and Hired Muscle, you have to choose one of the +Strength bonuses to use. However, you can still use any extra effects the other cards have. Like using the Revolver for +Strength and using the Hired Muscle to reroll one dice.

2: Cards/abilities that give extra dice. For example, Leo Andersons ability to gain one extra dice in Wilderness. Or the Urban Guide Asset.
These DO STACK. You can add dice from several cards and abilities, because these do not increase your stats.
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Lewis
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Seems like everyone have different take about this issue.
 
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Lewis
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Ralzar wrote:
There are two ways to add dice to a test:

1: Cards that increase the Skill you are testing. For example, Hired Muscle, which gives +1 Strength. These DO NOT STACK. If you have Revolver and Hired Muscle, you have to choose one of the +Strength bonuses to use. However, you can still use any extra effects the other cards have. Like using the Revolver for +Strength and using the Hired Muscle to reroll one dice.

2: Cards/abilities that give extra dice. For example, Leo Andersons ability to gain one extra dice in Wilderness. Or the Urban Guide Asset.
These DO STACK. You can add dice from several cards and abilities, because these do not increase your stats.


I already knew about number 1, but still not so sure about number 2.

What does Leo's passive ability to roll additional dice on wilderness space got to do to the city guide bonus? They're only apply on different space right?

In the city space, city guide bonus. While Leo's passive ability on wilderness space.
 
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M.C.Crispy
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BertMcCloud wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Ultimate Frog wrote:
coldpheasant wrote:
unless I'm mistaken, the only thing that doesn't stack is +x effects. if you had a +3 asset, a +1 and reroll asset, the urban guide, Lola's extra die, 3 initial skill and 2 improvement points, you could roll ten dice and reroll one of them. the only thing left off would be the +1 in favor of the +3.


I'm confused...
Why so? coldpheasant is correct, +X [SKILL] bonuses are the only bonuses that don't stack. Anything that specifically says that it is increasing your skill for the purposes of a check is non-stacking. Effects that do this are usually Assets, most other Effects talk about "additional dice" and can be considered as modifying your dice pool rather than your skill. (Of course Skill Tokens are the exception here as they do stack with the skill bonus).

Skill bonuses don't stack
Dice Pool modifiers don't stack

It's not quite how the rules phrase it, but it's my mental model and it works for me. Here's what the Ref Guide says

Quote:
Determine Dice Pool: The investigator determines the number of dice he will roll. This number is his dice pool.
• He starts with a number equal to the skill being tested.
• He adds or subtracts the test modifier (the number that follows the skill icon on the effect).
• If he has an Improvement token for the skill being tested, he adds the Improvement token’s modifier.
• He may use one effect that provides a bonus (for example “Gain +3 {”). If multiple effects provide a bonus, he uses only the highest bonus.
• He adds any “additional dice” he gains from effects that apply. Additional dice are cumulative and are in addition to other effects.


Hold up; now you're confusing me.

You said "Dice Pool Modifiers don't stack". But the ref guide you quoted says

ref guide wrote:
He adds any “additional dice” he gains from effects that apply. Additional dice are cumulative and are in addition to other effects


That clearly says Dice pool modifiers DO stack. As in, anything that tells you to roll "1 additional die" will be cumulative with other things that say the same thing. I'm assuming just a typo but since there's been other confusion it's best to clear it up!


Urgh! That's my brain being about six steps ahead of my fingers, sorry!

I wish that there was better terminology, but let me try again.

Skill bonuses conferred by effects other than Skill Improvements do not stack. Anything else that modifies your dice pool, or the modifies the dice roll does stack.

Does that work for you?
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Lewis
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mccrispy wrote:
BertMcCloud wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Ultimate Frog wrote:
coldpheasant wrote:
unless I'm mistaken, the only thing that doesn't stack is +x effects. if you had a +3 asset, a +1 and reroll asset, the urban guide, Lola's extra die, 3 initial skill and 2 improvement points, you could roll ten dice and reroll one of them. the only thing left off would be the +1 in favor of the +3.


I'm confused...
Why so? coldpheasant is correct, +X [SKILL] bonuses are the only bonuses that don't stack. Anything that specifically says that it is increasing your skill for the purposes of a check is non-stacking. Effects that do this are usually Assets, most other Effects talk about "additional dice" and can be considered as modifying your dice pool rather than your skill. (Of course Skill Tokens are the exception here as they do stack with the skill bonus).

Skill bonuses don't stack
Dice Pool modifiers don't stack

It's not quite how the rules phrase it, but it's my mental model and it works for me. Here's what the Ref Guide says

Quote:
Determine Dice Pool: The investigator determines the number of dice he will roll. This number is his dice pool.
• He starts with a number equal to the skill being tested.
• He adds or subtracts the test modifier (the number that follows the skill icon on the effect).
• If he has an Improvement token for the skill being tested, he adds the Improvement token’s modifier.
• He may use one effect that provides a bonus (for example “Gain +3 {”). If multiple effects provide a bonus, he uses only the highest bonus.
• He adds any “additional dice” he gains from effects that apply. Additional dice are cumulative and are in addition to other effects.


Hold up; now you're confusing me.

You said "Dice Pool Modifiers don't stack". But the ref guide you quoted says

ref guide wrote:
He adds any “additional dice” he gains from effects that apply. Additional dice are cumulative and are in addition to other effects


That clearly says Dice pool modifiers DO stack. As in, anything that tells you to roll "1 additional die" will be cumulative with other things that say the same thing. I'm assuming just a typo but since there's been other confusion it's best to clear it up!


Urgh! That's my brain being about six steps ahead of my fingers, sorry!

I wish that there was better terminology, but let me try again.

Skill bonuses conferred by effects other than Skill Improvements do not stack. Anything else that modifies your dice pool, or the modifies the dice roll does stack.

Does that work for you?


Now I feel stupid...
And confused.

So let me get this straight.

Any modifier that says +x (one of the 5 skills) from the asset do not stack but the "roll additional dice" for (special circumstances) stack?

Does that mean (like on my original post) I still get one additional roll in combat from city guide on city space even after I get a weapon of +3?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Ultimate Frog wrote:
Does that mean (like on my original post) I still get one additional roll in combat from city guide on city space even after I get a weapon of +3?

Yes, you would get that additional die after applying the +3 from the weapon in this case; although the card name is Urban Guide, not City Guide.
 
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M.C.Crispy
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Ultimate Frog wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
I wish that there was better terminology, but let me try again.

Skill bonuses conferred by effects other than Skill Improvements do not stack. Anything else that modifies your dice pool, or the modifies the dice roll does stack.

Does that work for you?


Now I feel stupid...
And confused.

So let me get this straight.

Any modifier that says +x (one of the 5 skills) from the asset do not stack but the "roll additional dice" for (special circumstances) stack?

Does that mean (like on my original post) I still get one additional roll in combat from city guide on city space event after I get a weapon of +3?
Any modifier that says +X [SKILL] regardless of where it comes from does not stack (skill improvement tokens are the exception). Any other type of modifier does stack.

I do not remember the text of Urban Guide, but if you apply the principles that I set out then you will be right.

It's worth noting that some bonus apply to all Checks, whereas some only apply to specific types of Check. The ones that have a limitation will state it. If they don't state a limitation, they don't have one. You pretty much take EH at face value. So if a bonus says '+X [SKILL] to Combat Checks' it's a non-stackable bonus to Combat Checks. If it says '+X [SKILL]' then it provides a non-stackable bonus to [SKILL] Checks, which includes a (non-stacking) bonus to Combat Checks if [SKILL] is [STR] or [WILL]. On the other hand, if the bonus conferred is not a '+X [SKILL]' then the same is true as for '+X [SKILL]' bonuses except that the bonus is stackable
 
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Lewis
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Ok, gotcha. Thanks a ton.

Ummm... a bit out of topic guys. I think the forum's active, next to hot and recent is broken.

It kept showing Jim Culver at the top.

Where do you usually report this kind of thing?
 
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Joe Bowers
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Yup, this game is hard enough that we just stack everything except weapons and still usually lose.
 
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Rob Schultz
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Topdecker577 wrote:
Yup, this game is hard enough that we just stack everything except weapons and still usually lose.


That's sounds like how we play. Because the Hired Muscle isn't just for Combat checks, we had been treating him like a skill improvement. So you (we) would roll Strength + Hired Muscle + 1 weapon that improved Strength in Combat.

My gamers had this opinion reinforced by cards like the Syndicate Agent, which, while also an ally, specify that it only lends a hand in Combat. The fact that the Agent is worded the same as a gun makes it seem either/or, instead of stackable.

Of course, then the question is whether the wording is deliberate (as one always hopes for in these games) or changed over time to clarify / prevent misuses like ours...
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Chris Malatesta
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Anything that says add 1 die while taking a test stacks with everything.

Anything that says you may reroll a die/multiple dice while taking a test stacks with everything.

Always use your base stat value + up to plus TWO for that stat due to improvement tokens.

Anything that says 'gain +x stat' DOES NOT STACK with other 'gain +x stat'. Use the highest value for that stat only.

Anything that says during combat can ONLY be used during combat checks (including ambushes, normal monster combats, and epic monster combats).

Combat checks also count as 'tests' in general, so something that gives +will or +strength even outside of combat would count in combat.
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