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Subject: How many Plascrete Carapace to run? rss

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Carl Frodge
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I'll be entering my first tournament soon. This is the first time my FLGS is hosting an ANR tournament, so I have no idea what to expect from the other players.

I want to be prepared for the Accelerated Diagnostics combo, just in case some of the others are playing it. I'll be playing Criminal. I'm wondering, how many Plascrete Carapace should I run to counter this?
 
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Wesley Kinslow
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Most decks consider running 2-3. It depends on how often you're low on credits. If you're pretty confident that you'll be up on money for most of the game or if you have a good deal of card draw then 2 should suffice.
 
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Robbie M.
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Most decks that include Plascrete use 2-3.

edit: enter the ninja
 
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Zeb
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Usually people run at least 2 Plascrete to counter Scorch. As for the accelerated diagnostics combo, you might want to run Decoy since it's in-faction. Even better if you're already using Hostage.

Good luck on your first tournament! Have fun! Look forward to hearing how it goes
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dan dargenio
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Whether you run 2 or 3 plascrete essentially depends on two things:

(1) How much card draw are you playing?
If you're playing Andromeda and are playing supplemental card draw, (Mr. Li, Quality Time), you probably only need 2. You're not likely to float tags against Weyland, so it's just important that you find one quickly, and not super necessary to find the second one, even if you opponent is playing scorched earth. If you're playing Shaper and have Quality Time and Diesel, you probably only need 2, though in either of these cases you could make a metagame call and play all 3, especially if you know some people are going to bring diagnostics combo Weyland.

(2) How badly do you want to remove tags?
If you're tagging yourself, (playing Account Siphon), 3 is maybe a good idea. If you're going to float tags, you're never totally safe until you install plascrete, even if they aren't playing Weyland. If your game plan is to ABSOLUTELY NEVER remove tags, you absolutely need 3. If you're playing Kati Jones in criminal, you can use her to fuel your econ and remove tags as criminal, and maybe can get away with 2 as long as you have a good amount of card draw. If you're not playing any resources or are only playing resources that are ok when tagged, (Armitage, DLR, Masanori, Joshua B.), you probably want 3.


Since you're playing criminal, I'll keep it simple. Gabe usually wants 3, Andy usually wants 2.
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Chris Wood
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I run zero, and never get hit by Scorched Earth. It's up to you Good luck!
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Lluluien
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FWIW, I'll be running 3 Plascretes in every deck for the foreseeable future.

I can count the number of times I've been killed by meat damage in this game on one hand since I stared playing 13 months ago, since I'm careful to play around all the usual Weyland shenanigans.

That said, the interaction between IAA->Posted Bounty->Scorch x 2 and the new IAA->3 point agenda->Punitive Counterstrike x 2 is !@^$%ing crazy good. It's very bloody hard to keep money to dodge SEA Source and/or fight Punitive Counterstrike traces while having to run a big-money Weyland remote. I lost the first time in a long, long time to the Scorched x 2 kill in a game a few days ago to this because I'd drawn half my deck and my two Plascretes were in the bottom four cards, and I made the wrong call on not running a server that ended up being Posted Bounty.

Not only is this situation easier to set up now with the existance of Punitive Counterstrike, there's a reasonably good chance when the trap goes off that they can blow away the armor and set you up for it again later in the game.

As heavy as these Weyland decks are represented right now, I don't consider 2 copies of Plascrete an option anymore.
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Dave Kudzma
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Taloncarde wrote:
I run zero, and never get hit by Scorched Earth. It's up to you Good luck!


I played at my first of two store championships with Ben Mason. He told the friend I came with he doesn't run plascrete any more because he simply plays to beat the trace, keeping enough cash on hand.

In my second store championship I ran none, kept my cash up, ran often enough to keep their cash low enough, and never had the threat. It's certainly something that takes experience in the game to be confident doing, but I think it's worth freeing up the 2-3 slots for other cards; economy would be the best thing there IMHO.

That's not to say you won't get caught off guard, but it's a lot of work most times to get the combo. It's not just about the cash for Scorch, it's also having to hold the combo and run your deck with as little as 2 cards in your hand other than the combo.

Edit:

I would also add that almost everyone I played was running some form of FA. I went up against some Weyland, and even less Jinteki, but with practice against them outside of tourneys it's easier to deal with their threats.
 
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Dave Kudzma
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lluluien wrote:
Not only is this situation easier to set up now with the existance of Punitive Counterstrike, there's a reasonably good chance when the trap goes off that they can blow away the armor and set you up for it again later in the game.

As heavy as these Weyland decks are represented right now, I don't consider 2 copies of Plascrete an option anymore.


Power Grid Overload already lets them take care of the plascrete. The one time I was nuked recently I had plenty of credits, 4 cards in hand, and I was counting on the 4 tokens on plascrete...then they nuked it and also me.
 
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Ben Benjamin

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locusshifter wrote:
Taloncarde wrote:
I run zero, and never get hit by Scorched Earth. It's up to you Good luck!


I played at my first of two store championships with Ben Mason. He told the friend I came with he doesn't run plascrete any more because he simply plays to beat the trace, keeping enough cash on hand.

In my second store championship I ran none, kept my cash up, ran often enough to keep their cash low enough, and never had the threat. It's certainly something that takes experience in the game to be confident doing, but I think it's worth freeing up the 2-3 slots for other cards; economy would be the best thing there IMHO.

That's not to say you won't get caught off guard, but it's a lot of work most times to get the combo. It's not just about the cash for Scorch, it's also having to hold the combo and run your deck with as little as 2 cards in your hand other than the combo.

Edit:

I would also add that almost everyone I played was running some form of FA. I went up against some Weyland, and even less Jinteki, but with practice against them outside of tourneys it's easier to deal with their threats.


Actually I've been running 1 in Andromeda, but the same idea applies. Always drop tags until doing so would lose you the game, and stay a head on money. To pull this off you really need to have enough money to make sure the corp can't get off 2 Punitive traces against you or 1 SEA source plus 2 scorched (though this one isn't as important in the early game since it involves them having 3 specific cards vs 2). In addition to AS (which is really good at keeping ahead or level to corp money levels) you need to play some big econ cards like Bank job in order to dp this in criminal. I also run Mr. Li (the most underrated Runner card there is) so that when I am forced to find my one of plascrete, I can just start digging fast. MO deck can also get away with fewer Plascretes since they ahve such a reliable source of cash.

Long story short, 2 is probably the average number, but you can get away with 1 if you build your deck to support that strategy.

EDIT: I should also note that you are making your plan against Weyland Meat decks weaker by doing this. It's a trade off that leaves you with a good amount a game against Scorch decks, but not not as much as you could have in exhange for a card slot that helps you out against some other matchups. If the Grundle decks remain as popular as they seem to be according to the Store Champs results we've seen coming in, I might have add that 2nd Plascrete back in.
 
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Lluluien
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locusshifter wrote:
lluluien wrote:
Not only is this situation easier to set up now with the existance of Punitive Counterstrike, there's a reasonably good chance when the trap goes off that they can blow away the armor and set you up for it again later in the game.

As heavy as these Weyland decks are represented right now, I don't consider 2 copies of Plascrete an option anymore.


Power Grid Overload already lets them take care of the plascrete. The one time I was nuked recently I had plenty of credits, 4 cards in hand, and I was counting on the 4 tokens on plascrete...then they nuked it and also me.


You'll definitely never be able to stop them every time, but having just one Plascrete installed gives you miles of extra slack to work with. The Corp having to use PGO is another card and another big trace they have to win.

My point about using 3 is essentially this - Weyland has so many ways to get money now that you don't want to have to play behind the 8 ball the whole game until you get your defensive preparations in play. In order to beat them, you have to first not-lose to them, so you want whatever your protection mechanism is in play sooner rather than later.
 
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Dave Kudzma
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Thing is that the 3 you put into the carapace was 3 more toward beating the trace. Then in it's place you had extra economy, making you faster or more able to beat the trace.
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Captain Frisk
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locusshifter wrote:
Thing is that the 3 you put into the carapace was 3 more toward beating the trace. Then in it's place you had extra economy, making you faster or more able to beat the trace.


Depending on your deck (and Weylands) it may not be possible to keep up with the corp economy. The AD decks that I've seen that run beanstalk, GLC, hedgefund, restructure can easily gain money faster than a non Opus runner can.

Personally - I generally run 3. I always wanted to be able to run aggressively and not worry about the 25% of the time that both plascretes are on the bottom half of your deck and I basically can't run without risking death. (3 plascretes gives Andy a 50% chance of having one in her starting hand)
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David Jackman
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GRNDL is a serious threat. They will fairly often be at 14-15 credits before you even take your first turn. Outpacing them economically is very difficult, and quite frankly, not always possible.

The problem with relying on just 'keeping a lot of credits', is that good weyland decks will score agendas while you're willing to stockpile credits and win the game through agenda points.

Like most things, a balance is needed - I think the only time i'd run 3 is if i was running a deck that runs no +draw. 2 is fine if you've got a way to get through your deck.

From a playing perspective, its a matter of dodging the sea source, either by credit count or not running at key times, as well as plascrete.

As far as the combo - they need even more money to pull it off, and plascrete works against it too, so long as you dont let a jackson live in a remote.

I think the main reason people die vs weyland is they run centrals too much. Lock their remote, and sit back, and both scorch and non-scorch weyland tends to fall.
 
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casper jorgensen
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Against The Combo, you can also consider running Crash Space. It has the benefit of not being Power Shutdown'ed, but is vulnerable if they tag you first. But they can't tag you, clear the CS, power shutdown and acc. diagnostics in the same turn.
 
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Erik vN
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
... The AD decks that I've seen that run beanstalk, GLC, hedgefund, restructure can easily gain money faster than a non Opus runner can...

Even Opus runners will struggle there, because by the time they have Opus out and recovered from the tempo hit, Weyland Operation econ has built up enough credits to kill them. If you then play to win the econ war, you give them a huge scoring window, which may very well cost you the game.

IMO, trying to win the econ war is not a viable protection from flatline, because a runner probably won't be running as much as he/she should while focusing on gaining credits.
 
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Lou Lessing
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I'm a firm believer in playing zero, in general. It's not that hard to play around Tag and Bag, and it's not even the deck to beat anymore. It's still around, but Fast Advance is a vastly more common, and more difficult matchup. Although your local meta may vary, if I was going to play super narrow hate cards that were dead against all but one deck, I'd play Fast Advance hate. I'd consider it in some Criminal lists if you want to float Siphon tags and don't play Lawyer Up, though, because that deck's TnB matchup is so bad, but other that that, I think Plascrete's an unnecessary safety net.

If it's the new combo version you're worried about, Plascrete's only very conditionally useful. This is the Power Shutdown-Jackson Howard-Accelerated Diagonostics-Scorched Earth deck, right? Because if I'm right about what deck you're talking about, 1. You can beat it without Plascrete, it's even fiddlier than than old-school Tag and Bag, and 2. Plascrete usually just dies to the Power Shutdown.

And in terms of winning the econ war: Account Siphon's a fifteen credit swing in your favor, albeit smaller than that once the tags are dealt with.
 
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Lluluien
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brisingre wrote:
...but other that that, I think Plascrete's an unnecessary safety net.


Outside the context of a tournament, that's probably true, but the penalty for losing a game to one misstep in a tournament is pretty big, and we make concessions to dead cards all the time for other reasons like "I want to draw this early". It sounds like there are plenty of people that are successful without the safety net, but I want mine because I'm still of the opinion that between two good players, it's the Runner's game to lose, and Weyland's new meat damage tools (GRNDL, Punitive Counterstrike, AD combo, etc.) are the most reliable way for the Corp to make them lose so far that I've seen.

I'm not the least bit ashamed to say that, either. And I also play with Infiltrates.
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Lou Lessing
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lluluien wrote:
brisingre wrote:
...but other that that, I think Plascrete's an unnecessary safety net.


Outside the context of a tournament, that's probably true, but the penalty for losing a game to one misstep in a tournament is pretty big, and we make concessions to dead cards all the time for other reasons like "I want to draw this early". It sounds like there are plenty of people that are successful without the safety net, but I want mine because I'm still of the opinion that between two good players, it's the Runner's game to lose, and Weyland's new meat damage tools (GRNDL, Punitive Counterstrike, AD combo, etc.) are the most reliable way for the Corp to make them lose so far that I've seen.

I'm not the least bit ashamed to say that, either. And I also play with Infiltrates.


That's fine. If you think Plascrete improves your chances, you should play it. There's nothing wrong with playing carefully, or building your deck in ways that play to your strengths and cover your weaknesses. It's a good idea. I personally advocate playing without safety net cards, so you get confident at playing without them, but a tournament might not be the best place for that, depending on your confidence and preferences.

I also sometimes play Infiltrations.
 
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brisingre wrote:
I'm a firm believer in playing zero, in general. It's not that hard to play around Tag and Bag, and it's not even the deck to beat anymore. It's still around, but Fast Advance is a vastly more common, and more difficult matchup. Although your local meta may vary, if I was going to play super narrow hate cards that were dead against all but one deck, I'd play Fast Advance hate. I'd consider it in some Criminal lists if you want to float Siphon tags and don't play Lawyer Up, though, because that deck's TnB matchup is so bad, but other that that, I think Plascrete's an unnecessary safety net.

If it's the new combo version you're worried about, Plascrete's only very conditionally useful. This is the Power Shutdown-Jackson Howard-Accelerated Diagonostics-Scorched Earth deck, right? Because if I'm right about what deck you're talking about, 1. You can beat it without Plascrete, it's even fiddlier than than old-school Tag and Bag, and 2. Plascrete usually just dies to the Power Shutdown.

And in terms of winning the econ war: Account Siphon's a fifteen credit swing in your favor, albeit smaller than that once the tags are dealt with.


I was playing around with the Power Shutdown deck last night. It's very beatable if the runner knows what they are doing - but plascretes are important. I would be shocked if you can reliably beat the deck 50% of the time without some hate cards in your deck.

The runner has to be extremely careful with every action that isn't gaining money Plascrete can provide some very valueable breathing room.
 
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Jethro Hendrickx
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brisingre wrote:
I'm a firm believer in playing zero, in general. It's not that hard to play around Tag and Bag, and it's not even the deck to beat anymore. It's still around, but Fast Advance is a vastly more common, and more difficult matchup. Although your local meta may vary, if I was going to play super narrow hate cards that were dead against all but one deck, I'd play Fast Advance hate. I'd consider it in some Criminal lists if you want to float Siphon tags and don't play Lawyer Up, though, because that deck's TnB matchup is so bad, but other that that, I think Plascrete's an unnecessary safety net.

If it's the new combo version you're worried about, Plascrete's only very conditionally useful. This is the Power Shutdown-Jackson Howard-Accelerated Diagonostics-Scorched Earth deck, right? Because if I'm right about what deck you're talking about, 1. You can beat it without Plascrete, it's even fiddlier than than old-school Tag and Bag, and 2. Plascrete usually just dies to the Power Shutdown.

And in terms of winning the econ war: Account Siphon's a fifteen credit swing in your favor, albeit smaller than that once the tags are dealt with.


I'm of the same school. I'll include 2-3 carapaces in a deck designed to take tags (usally including account syphon), and no carapaces in my other decks. I'll take more econ cards anytime over such a conditional card as this.
 
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lluluien wrote:
That said, the interaction between IAA->Posted Bounty->Scorch x 2 and the new IAA->3 point agenda->Punitive Counterstrike x 2 is !@^$%ing crazy good.


This. Weyland decks which run IAA are brutal. If you don't run the remote, you risk a Posted Bounty-Scorch kill. Or an overadvanced Atlas, or The Cleaners, either of which make the Scorch threat much more viable in addition to bringing the corp closer to match point, forcing you to make riskier plays in the future. If you do run their taxing remote, you take an econ hit and open yourself up to SEA/Scorch or 2x (or even 3x!) Punitive. The ideal scenario for a good Weyland TnB is to create a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't setup. Even when they can't set that up, the issue is that you don't know (barring some Expert Schedule Analyzers or an R&D lock) which of these (if any!) the corp is actually ready to hit you with: are you really prepared to deal with all of them?

And with the added flexibility of the AD combo, you may need even more econ than you think. E.g. if Jackson's already on the table, Weyland can include a Hedge Fund/Restructure as a piece of the combo, using the last click to play a second Scorch (or third Punitive or w/e) from hand.

There are many more vectors to lethal meat damage than there used to be. The advantage of Plascrete is that it is good (not perfect! but good) insurance against all of them. Decoy is also good (although ineffective against the less-common Midseasons play). Staying ahead in credits is a good idea, but unless you can pull that off while also running every single card they put down, you're vulnerable to a Bounty kill. And if you *can* stay ahead in credits and run every single installed card -- more power to you, but you've also created the Excalibur of runner decks and probably don't have a lot of reasons to hang around the BGG strategy forums anymore.
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General Norris
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The tricky part is not so much beating the trace as being able to beat the trace after dropping your icebreakers and running through Archer, that's the real use of Plascrete Carapace.
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General_Norris wrote:
The tricky part is not so much beating the trace as being able to beat the trace after dropping your icebreakers and running through Archer, that's the real use of Plascrete Carapace.


Exactly.
 
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Yi Sheng Siow
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gabe sleeps in his plascrete pyjamas. 3.

tbh, the true use of plascrete is to allow you to play tagme vs nbn/weyland, which is where siphon is 6 click-creds stronger.

but i guess it would depend on how big/varied your meta is.
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