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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition)» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Do you guys play with mines? rss

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Tom N
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We were considering a rule to limit mines to home systems because people were complaining that they are overpowered for 2 resources.
 
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Starkiller
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Interesting....by overpowered do you mean: causes turtling/discourages combat too much?
 
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Necessary Evil
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Always use them, never seen them abused.
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Brian Mc Cabe
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I thought that said, "Do you guys play with mimes?"

Brian
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Starkiller
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And I know this has a high chance of annoying the sauron out of people, but have you checked old threads before starting a new one?

This thread starts with a variant, but ends up discussing space mines in general.
It was still active fairly recently, you would have gotten a response if it didn't answer your question in the first place.
 
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Lance Harrop
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Yes, but people tend to forget about them.

Same is true about facilities.
 
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Jonathan Challis
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Some people dislike them because they encourage turtling and discourage conflict (we like them for these very reasons).

Some people don't like them because they are quite ineffective and both the cost and opportunity cost is quite high.

I've never seen anyone complain they are overpowered. They are weak, but occasionally useful. Whether you see their impact on the game as positive or negative is distinct from this.
 
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Steve Fowler
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We play each race gets 2 mine counters and thats it.
One starts in the home system and is replaced if need be during the status phase for free if you are not blockaded. The other is build per raw. So only one mine out side of the home world for each race.
 
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Starkiller
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Fargofootball wrote:
We play each race gets 2 mine counters and thats it.
One starts in the home system and is replaced if need be during the status phase for free if you are not blockaded. The other is build per raw. So only one mine out side of the home world for each race.

If I may ask, does that really seem worth it? It seems like too much extra complexity and rules for only getting to place one minefield.
I think I'd just as soon skip mines.
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Mike Smith
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Everyone seems to assume Mines encourage turtling. I have seen games where the reverse happens. Mines are used to make back areas a bit securer against surprise thrusts while main forces are shoved into the middle for a bit of aggro.
To mitigate Mines, and add to the differences between ship types I play a variant where Destroyers have the ability to roll to sweep Mines.
 
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Adam Mitchell
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Kelanen wrote:
Some people dislike them because they encourage turtling and discourage conflict (we like them for these very reasons).

Some people don't like them because they are quite ineffective and both the cost and opportunity cost is quite high.

I've never seen anyone complain they are overpowered. They are weak, but occasionally useful. Whether you see their impact on the game as positive or negative is distinct from this.


I'm curious; why does your gaming group want to encourage turtling and discourage conflict?
 
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Jonathan Challis
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Because we like civ building games not wargames. Turtling is a good thing IMO. If it's any help I also play control decks not aggro, in CCG's etc - it's a general mindset of what I enjoy and find fun, shared by most of my group.

TI3 is fundamentally a cold war game, not a war game. We definitely enjoy the civ side more than the combat side. In any game.

If we wanted a conflict based 4x-type game then we'd be playing Eclipse or Starcraft which do that better. Half the group wouldn't ever play such a game however, and several more (including me) really don't enjoy them).
 
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Christopher Scatliff
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akinfantryman wrote:
And I know this has a high chance of annoying the sauron out of people, but have you checked old threads before starting a new one?


I'm for searching old threads as much as the next guy, but if I'm searching for a strategy or general discussion about an official rule, I absolutely would exclude the variants sub-forum from my search.
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Henry Coleman
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Leifr wrote:
Yes, but people tend to forget about them.

Same is true about facilities.
Same thing with our group. Don't think anyone has ever felt the need to build one.
 
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possum man
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I tend to build them rarely, other players hardly ever.
They're only really useful again larger fleets - I'll build one if I have 2 resources extra and no production capacity, or if I have aggressively taken someone else's system.
 
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Lucas Walker
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We play with a limit of one mine per system, which cuts down on the cheese. Prior to that rule we banned play with mines for a while, because players would just build like 50 in a system and it'd be ludicrous.
 
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Jonathan Challis
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Kerrus wrote:
We play with a limit of one mine per system, which cuts down on the cheese. Prior to that rule we banned play with mines for a while, because players would just build like 50 in a system and it'd be ludicrous.


You realise that you are only ever allowed to build 1 per cruiser per build action right?

And you are piece limited to about 10 of them... (amongst all players).
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Roberto Armentia
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Kelanen wrote:
Kerrus wrote:
We play with a limit of one mine per system, which cuts down on the cheese. Prior to that rule we banned play with mines for a while, because players would just build like 50 in a system and it'd be ludicrous.


You realise that you are only ever allowed to build 1 per cruiser per build action right?

And you are piece limited to about 10 of them... (amongst all players).


More precisely, 1 per activation with a cruiser not built in this same activation.
 
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Jonathan Challis
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robertcop2 wrote:

More precisely, 1 per activation with a cruiser not built in this same activation.


Agreed - I wasn't suggesting once ever, which my wording could have been construed as.

Given that they are slow to build (especially in opportunity cost), and even if you have 6 on a hex, explicitly only one detonates when an enemy fleet moves in, you almost never see multiples piling up.

I suspect this is a house rule to fix a mistaken interpretation...
 
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Scott Lewis
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Kelanen wrote:
robertcop2 wrote:

More precisely, 1 per activation with a cruiser not built in this same activation.


Agreed - I wasn't suggesting once ever, which my wording could have been construed as.

Given that they are slow to build (especially in opportunity cost), and even if you have 6 on a hex, explicitly only one detonates when an enemy fleet moves in, you almost never see multiples piling up.

I think what Robert was pointing out was that it's not "1 per cruiser per build action", it's one mine per activation, regardless of the number of cruisers (as long as there is at least one cruiser, of course), and that the cruiser(s) must have been there prior to the Production step (IE, if there were no cruisers in the system, you can't build a new cruiser and then have that new cruiser immediately deploy a mine).

If you have 1 cruiser or 6 cruisers in a system, you still can only build one space mine in the system during the Production step. So building a whole stack of mines in a single system takes several actions to do (which usually means several game rounds, since without an action card or Warfare primary, you can't activate the same system twice).
 
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Lucas Walker
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Interesting, no I wasn't aware of that. We'd been playing that it's one mine per cruiser, so if you stuff 5 cruisers into a sector you can build 5 mines, and also that you could use additional tokens for mines, much like ground forces/fighters.

Having double checked the FAQ just now, I see that this isn't actually the case.
 
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Jonathan Challis
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I have to say I was also under the impression that it was one per cruiser also, although having said that, I don't think I've ever seen two mines built. By the time mines are useful, no-one is building Cruisers much (which is one of several reasons I like the rule - it gives them a use).
 
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Jonathan Challis
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Kerrus wrote:
Interesting, no I wasn't aware of that. We'd been playing that it's one mine per cruiser, so if you stuff 5 cruisers into a sector you can build 5 mines, and also that you could use additional tokens for mines, much like ground forces/fighters.


Yes, your mine issue doesn't actually exist, it was just an error.
 
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Scott Lewis
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Kelanen wrote:
I have to say I was also under the impression that it was one per cruiser also, although having said that, I don't think I've ever seen two mines built. By the time mines are useful, no-one is building Cruisers much (which is one of several reasons I like the rule - it gives them a use).

The rulebook is pretty explicit about it, on page 10:

"Players may never produce more than one space mine during a single activation."

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Jonathan Challis
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Yes, I'll accept that, it was purely my assumption. As I noted above, I have never seen multiples from the same side be deployed in a turn. I'm not certain I've even seen multiples from the same side on a space, although it has probably happened once or twice.

I'm a proponent of mines being in the game, but I'm the first to say that they won't be used much. We typically see maybe 3 mines a game used (variance maybe +/-3) and most players will therefore never use them, those typically all coming from 1-2 players in a 6-8 player game.
 
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