Katy Grierson
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I will just leave this here....

http://www.nospec.com/faq
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Katy Grierson
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I'm not particularly willing to get into this *again* however, you have gone over your initial goal for your kickstarter with 28 days left to go, and your budget for one of the most important bits of your entire brand, the image people will recognise you by and will be on all your stuff is only £100?

Leviatham wrote:

Yes, specially because I never had, or claimed to have, any rights to the work that's submitted but doesn't win. Furthermore the only thing I ask in the terms of entry is for the reproduction rights, not the copy rights.


No company would do it for that little money. Which is why I suspect you are running a 'competition'

You noted that if there are no entries you like that you will just declare the contest void, which I think is unethical. Its dangling a carrot then if you don't get the result you want then taking the carrot away. Will you just keep running 'competitions' and not paying out until you finally get a logo you like?

Also in terms of usage rights, the winning entry is transferring perpetual rights to you...for less than £100 as you have to take some time off for actually making the logo.

Yes I get people don't have to enter, some people may want to give it a shot but that doesn't make it good practice generally especially due to the low amounts involved and the fact that there is a distinct possibility that no-one will 'win'.
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Katy Grierson
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Being constructive:

You should either use your in house graphic designers or do some research and hire a professional to create your logo or indeed just do it yourself.

Yes involving the community is a good thing, but taking advantage of people who perhaps do not know what their creativity, time and giving away their rights is worth is unethical, especially since you can just pull the plug on the competition at any point so there is no winner.

By all means run a competition, for a motto or an episode idea or a concept but don't make the prize dependant on whether or not you like the entries. Competition implies there will be a prize for the winner, not just a possibility of a prize.

A larger prize would make it a little more ethical in that you would be compensating someone fairly for their time, creativity and the reproduction rights they are giving up to you. Especially as people are taking a higher risk due to the fact there is potentially no winner.

I'm not going to get into a war of words with you because you have taken the no spec link the wrong way, spec work and competitions are on the whole making it difficult for creatives - especially graphic designers and illustrators to make a living as more and more people are thinking it standard practice and baulking when they contact people who expect to be compensated fairly on a living wage for their time.
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Katy Grierson
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I'm obviously not making myself clear somehow, so this will be my last post on the subject as I don't think we are going to see eye to eye.

It's not a competition if there is a chance that no one wins.

£100 is low for a logo especially giving away all the rights even if it is 'non-professional' work.



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Jake Staines
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In all honesty, when I first saw the thread I just kind of shrugged and passed it by, but the more you try and justify yourself the worse you look, to me - none of the arguments you're using are new ("this isn't a commercial endeavour", "I'm paying for this out of my own pocket", "I won't be making money out of this", "I wouldn't be going to a professional anyway", "I'm trying to engage with the community" etc.) - this is all stereotypical stuff.

The fundamental problem I have with your approach - leaving aside that it smells of all those scumbags in the past who have been deliberately trying to take advantage of the naïvité of amateur designers - is that you're inviting people to enter into a competition for which there is no guarantee of a winner. You're essentially saying "my utility in getting a logo is more important than being fair to the people who enter my competition" - you want to invite a load of people to spend some time and do some work for you so that you can pick and choose at your leisure whether you want to pay any of them or not, which means you're asking all your entrants to take on all the risk (investing time in your competition) without any risk whatsoever on your part (because you can ultimately choose to not pay any of them at all).

I'm not saying that you're necessarily going to declare "no winner" and then take design concepts from the entrants and put together a logo yourself, but it's a possibility. It's been done too many times before, and that's why people are wary of this kind of maybe-a-competition. The fact that you're spouting all the same self-justifications as to why you're not a horrible person just makes it all look worse. Sure, you can say now "I've had an entry I like enough, so there will definitely be a winner to the competition", but that wasn't your proposition when you started, and your proposition - whether you like it or not - was unethical.

I've got nothing at all against asking for help from the community, see if anyone is interested enough in your project to do some work for you for free. I don't think it's a productive way to engage with the community, but that's your business. However! Enticing people with a carrot that may not exist is just wrong, no matter how you try to justify it. (And one tip: attacking people who point out your behaviour is never going to get the community on your side, for what it's worth.)





Now, as I understand it, there's a rule on BGG that you run all competitions past the admins before running them. Did you check with them about this one? I'd like to think that they'd refuse to allow a competition where people were expected to put in real time and effort with no guarantee that there would even be a winner.
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Jake Staines
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Leviatham wrote:
Well, thanks for calling me a scumbag.... that's just charming mate...

Secondly, I haven't attacked anyone. I have defended myself, which it seems is also something that shouldn't be done...


I didn't call you a scumbag, mate, but thanks for doing me the courtesy of actually reading my post properly before retorting in such an disrespectful manner.

What I said was that your approach seems from the outside very similar to things scumbags have done in the past. Only you can know what you intend in your head, everyone else has to make a guess based on your actions, and your actions here are highly suspect. The more you "defend" yourself by being generally insulting and aggressive, the worse you look.


Now: have you got permission from Octavian to run your so-called "contest" or are you in breach of BGG rules?
 
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Jason Washburn
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looks like they pulled the posts.
 
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