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Subject: Cache: How much is too much? rss

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Tim Meng
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For reference:



So, my question:

As the Corp player playing against a Runner using Cache, how much is too much? If the Runner installs a Cache and decides to leave some or all virus tokens intact, do you purge? What if they have Grimoire as well? What if they play two, but then use a couple tokens?

How much is too much?

Edit: For the sake of understanding, let's assume there are no other virus cards in play.
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Ben Benjamin

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First, a good runner would never give you more cause to use a Virus scan just by playing cash. If there was a chance they would lose the credits, there is hardly any reason to not to just take them.

Second, against a bad runner, the answer to this question is entirely dependent on what other viruses tokens they have. Because 3 click to deny the runner 3 credits is a bad trade.
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Joel Chi
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If they have Aesops, I would probably never purge.

Purging about 6-7+ Cache tokens is reasonable.

Depends on the situation ofc. If the runner is quite poor and has no way of getting into my servers, the purge threshold can drop to 5+. And it will not always be possible for the corp to purge, depending on the game state, without putting too many agenda points at risk.
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Richard Linnell
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Think of it from the runner side - at what point would you actually be upset if the corp wipes counters? I would gladly use two clicks and two credits to make the corp skip a turn. I could even proceed to use my next four clicks to simply take 4 credits and end up completely even. So I agree - as a general rule, don't wipe unless they have at least 6 counters for you to clear.

Of course, if I've packed Cyberdex, then it's a completely different calculus. In another case, if they've burnt out their bankroll somehow with nothing but a cache or two sitting out there, it might be worth denying them the quick recovery.
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Richard Linnell
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I just thought of another fringe benefit of Cache - protection when facechecking a tollbooth (or data pike). Be really good if you could pay X to place X tokens on it.
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Alejandro G.
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Grimoire installed on previous turn.

Click 1: Install Cache, +3 virus counters (+1 from Grimoire) = 4
Click 2: Surge, +2 virus counters (= 6)
Click 3: Surge, +2 virus counters (= 8)
Click 4: Pop it up for 8 credits.

Obviously not the most optimal situation, but just popped into my head.

But to answer the OP's question. If the Corp wants to wipe it and burn 3 clicks. Fine. I've time locked them for a turn.

If they don't, that's just as fine.
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Jason Dreger
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xpiredsodapop wrote:
Grimoire installed on previous turn.

Click 1: Install Cache, +3 virus counters (+1 from Grimoire) = 4
Click 2: Surge, +2 virus counters (= 6)
Click 3: Surge, +2 virus counters (= 8)
Click 4: Pop it up for 8 credits.


I think click 4 could be another surge could it not? It doesn't take a click to remove the credits as far as I can see.
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Alejandro G.
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homedrone wrote:
xpiredsodapop wrote:
Grimoire installed on previous turn.

Click 1: Install Cache, +3 virus counters (+1 from Grimoire) = 4
Click 2: Surge, +2 virus counters (= 6)
Click 3: Surge, +2 virus counters (= 8)
Click 4: Surge, +2 virus counters (= 10)

Pop it for 10 credits.



I think click 4 could be another surge could it not? It doesn't take a click to remove the credits as far as I can see.


That's true! Nice catch! Fixed.
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DK Kemler
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Why would you waste a surge for two credits? For the click to draw and click to play, you could just have gotten two credits,
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Alejandro G.
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degamer wrote:
Why would you waste a surge for two credits? For the click to draw and click to play, you could just have gotten two credits,


xpiredsodapop wrote:
Grimoire installed on previous turn.

Click 1: Install Cache, +3 virus counters (+1 from Grimoire) = 4
Click 2: Surge, +2 virus counters (= 6)
Click 3: Surge, +2 virus counters (= 8)
Click 4: Pop it up for 8 credits.

Obviously not the most optimal situation, but just popped into my head.

But to answer the OP's question. If the Corp wants to wipe it and burn 3 clicks. Fine. I've time locked them for a turn.

If they don't, that's just as fine.
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Andrew Keddie
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degamer wrote:
Why would you waste a surge for two credits? For the click to draw and click to play, you could just have gotten two credits,


Probably because by this point, the Surges are already in your hand and you no longer HAVE the click you spent to draw them to make a credit with?
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Guido Gloor
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
degamer wrote:
Why would you waste a surge for two credits? For the click to draw and click to play, you could just have gotten two credits,

Probably because by this point, the Surges are already in your hand and you no longer HAVE the click you spent to draw them to make a credit with?

Ah, and after you've played the Surge, you don't have the click you've used to play it to spend any more either, too! So Surge in this situation is two free credits without any click cost whatsoever!
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Dave Sutcliffe
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This card doesn't make much sense unless there are more cards coming that add virus counters to cards.

I can see that happening. Probably one of the currents.
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arnaud roussel
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Magicdave wrote:
This card doesn't make much sense unless there are more cards coming that add virus counters to cards.

I can see that happening. Probably one of the currents.


The question would then be if it's really relevant to sacrifice an additional deck slot for cache when you could put the tokens on another virus instead, unless you have cards that add token to all virus simultaneously but wouldn't that be overpowered.
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Andrew Keddie
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acken wrote:
Magicdave wrote:
This card doesn't make much sense unless there are more cards coming that add virus counters to cards.

I can see that happening. Probably one of the currents.


The question would then be if it's really relevant to sacrifice an additional deck slot for cache when you could put the tokens on another virus instead, unless you have cards that add token to all virus simultaneously but wouldn't that be overpowered.


Maybe a current that was something like Grimoire - "the first time each turn you add one or more virus counters to a card, add one additional virus counter."
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arnaud roussel
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
acken wrote:
Magicdave wrote:
This card doesn't make much sense unless there are more cards coming that add virus counters to cards.

I can see that happening. Probably one of the currents.


The question would then be if it's really relevant to sacrifice an additional deck slot for cache when you could put the tokens on another virus instead, unless you have cards that add token to all virus simultaneously but wouldn't that be overpowered.


Maybe a current that was something like Grimoire - "the first time each turn you add one or more virus counters to a card, add one additional virus counter."


Same question still applies, would you really use the additional counter on cache for just an extra 1$ when you could put it on way better virus programs (or try to in the case of your hypothetic card) ?

I mean I can see some good ideas for a combination with noise and grimoire if the card can actively take the place of some other eco cards but I wouldn't waste +counters cards on it (purge).
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L Cinn
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I don't entirely get the enthusiasm people show for this. I mean, it's ok. With a little synergy it turns into an easy mark (grimoire/kate), with some more synergy (Aesops) it gets a little better. And the ability to store credits is useful in some situations (and all the time for the new shaper ID). But I might be underestimating the benefit of the flexibility it can offer.

Interestingly, the nicest synergy I see might actually be with exile+scavenge. Just having one of these out turns your scavenges into easy mark + draw a card, which is actually pretty good. Especially since scavenge can sometime just sit in your hand doing nothing.
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Jack Keys
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This strikes me as a great economy engine for Noise. He typically already wants Grimoire and Aesop's Pawnshop, which would net him six credits and amill for one influence. What's better is that Sahasrara and Cyberfeeder are both useful and increase that to seven, and Scheherazade increases that to eight. Eight credits and a mill in a single click for one influence is very strong.

Nasir Meidan also likes this card, but he cares a bit more about the virus counters, so it's not as big of a return. It does nicely augment recurring credits for mid-run credit gain, though.
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Lysander
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The point is that it's designed for Tag-me decks that rely on event economy. This bounces back from a Closed Accounts and can't be trashed as with Resources without hitting a program trash (or Power Shutdown).
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Gin Teki
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skiesbleed wrote:
This strikes me as a great economy engine for Noise. He typically already wants Grimoire and Aesop's Pawnshop, which would net him six credits and amill for one influence. What's better is that Sahasrara and Cyberfeeder are both useful and increase that to seven, and Scheherazade increases that to eight. Eight credits and a mill in a single click for one influence is very strong.

Nasir Meidan also likes this card, but he cares a bit more about the virus counters, so it's not as big of a return. It does nicely augment recurring credits for mid-run credit gain, though.


Works for Exile as well, and doubles as a draw engine. Without the mill.
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Michael Redston
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xpiredsodapop wrote:
Grimoire installed on previous turn.

Click 1: Install Cache, +3 virus counters (+1 from Grimoire) = 4
Click 2: Surge, +2 virus counters (= 6)
Click 3: Surge, +2 virus counters (= 8)
Click 4: Pop it up for 8 credits.

Obviously not the most optimal situation, but just popped into my head.

But to answer the OP's question. If the Corp wants to wipe it and burn 3 clicks. Fine. I've time locked them for a turn.

If they don't, that's just as fine.

Surging a Cache has the same net gain of clicking for credits twice, so you basically did nothing.
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Alejandro G.
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Kroen...

Read the part in bold.

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/15114730#15114730
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Nate K
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Magicdave wrote:
This card doesn't make much sense unless there are more cards coming that add virus counters to cards.


Indeed. I'm not currently excited about this card. It's reasonable with an Aesop's economy, but beyond that I'm just not sure when it would see play. I can't see Criminals using it because they have better options, and it seems odd to spend influence to splash a less-versatile Infiltration. Maybe in Noise?

I'm hoping that they don't come up with too many good ways to add virus counters, though. I'm already seeing far too many Parasites and Data suckers.
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Sonny A.
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I can see this being useful in a Noise deck with Sahasrara/Aesop economy. They also run with Grimoire. Awesome synergy there.
 
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Ony Moose
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For any 2 of Grimoire/Cyberfeeder/Aseop's/Sharazade Cache is pretty amazingly for economy. With all 4 it's the best card in the game.

As for purging, 4 counters is the realistic most the runner would leave out, and only if they were expecting a closed accounts. I might purge then, if I had a scored efficiency committee / Cyberdex Trial. Otherwise short of the runner installing 2 Cache and leaving 8 counters out, purging just for Cache isn't going to happen.
 
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