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Subject: Doppleganger & Robber/Troublemaker rss

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Michael A.
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What happens if the doppleganger looks at a werewolf card (thus becoming werewolf), and gets robbed by the robber.

Does the robber now being the doppleganger be considered a werewolf at the end game?

 
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Jeffrey Speer
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No. Doppelgänger is now the robber, I believe, and the robber is now just the Doppelgänger.
 
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Kevin Peters Unrau
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Makoru wrote:
What happens if the doppleganger looks at a werewolf card (thus becoming werewolf), and gets robbed by the robber.

Does the robber now being the doppleganger be considered a werewolf at the end game?


The player with the Doppelganger card at the end of the game would be a werewolf.

Bezier Games Player Aid wrote:
The role seen by the Doppelganger player moves with the Doppelganger card; the player who ends up with that card is the role viewed by the original Doppelganger player.
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Pasi Ojala
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Makoru wrote:
Does the robber now being the doppleganger be considered a werewolf at the end game?

Yes, because it is doppelganger-werewolf. That's the 'fun' part of robbing the dobbelganger. You don't know which team you're on, so you would probably not claim robber and try to discretely find out.
 
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Dok Indigo
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a1bert wrote:
Makoru wrote:
Does the robber now being the doppleganger be considered a werewolf at the end game?

Yes, because it is doppelganger-werewolf. That's the 'fun' part of robbing the dobbelganger. You don't know which team you're on, so you would probably not claim robber and try to discretely find out.

So the original Doppelgänger may lie through the game and has to be honest when the game is over?

Am I right that no one can verify if the original Doppelgänger is honest at the end of the game?
 
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Pasi Ojala
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Hexendoktor wrote:
Am I right that no one can verify if the original Doppelgänger is honest at the end of the game?

Don't play with cheaters and assholes. whistle

(You can't verify if everyone is doing their night phase honestly either.)
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Dok Indigo
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a1bert wrote:
(You can't verify if everyone is doing their night phase honestly either.)

Ha, you are right of course.
 
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Ted Alspach
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Hexendoktor wrote:
Am I right that no one can verify if the original Doppelgänger is honest at the end of the game?


After the vote:

The Doppelgänger cannot lie about being a werewolf or not, which is the most important thing to determine who wins (in the case of the Doppelgänger getting the most votes, or if the Doppelgänger is on the winning team or not). Why can't she lie? Because if she really is a werewolf, at least one other werewolf will have seen her open her eyes.

The Doppelgänger can lie about other roles, including the Tanner, but she has to be really lucky to "get it right" because of the potential that other players have lied through the game. Lying about the Tanner or Minion (either way) could put her on the winning team if she was actually on the losing team, and only if she lies about being the Tanner does it impact the other players. But getting caught lying AFTER the game is really embarrassing, and there's a huge risk in that.
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Cameron McKenzie
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Doppleganger is really confusing. Just remember this:
-The player himself acquires the night powers of the card he sees, and these powers won't move.
-The Doppleganger card takes on the team and daytime powers of the card that was seen, and those move with the card.

That's true of everything in general. Night powers stay put, but teams and day powers move with the card.
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Alex G
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So far the only way I see to play with doppelgänger is to have a non-player arbitrator. Since there is no way to find out if someone cheated, you wouldn't even KNOW you are playing with a cheater.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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Being a cheater is not restricted to being a Dobbelganger, so setting up an impartial observer is not restricted to having Dobbelganger.

At least with Dobbelganger you usually have other players to confirm or deny after the game if Dobbel insists on something untrue. With a general cheater you can't do that, but need someone to make sure they do not cheat by looking at the role cards. (I think everything else, like doing extra switches during the night will be found out.)
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Charlie Theel
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unonameless wrote:
So far the only way I see to play with doppelgänger is to have a non-player arbitrator. Since there is no way to find out if someone cheated, you wouldn't even KNOW you are playing with a cheater.


Or it's a five minute game and you should be able to trust the people you are playing with?
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mateenyweeny
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And you'll know at the end of 5 minutes if someone cheated when you flip over the cards and then you never have to play with that person again.
 
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Donny Behne
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unonameless wrote:
So far the only way I see to play with doppelgänger is to have a non-player arbitrator. Since there is no way to find out if someone cheated, you wouldn't even KNOW you are playing with a cheater.


If someone needs to cheat to play that game, life probably sucks enough for them and you should let them win.
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Cameron McKenzie
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slinkydink wrote:
And you'll know at the end of 5 minutes if someone cheated when you flip over the cards and then you never have to play with that person again.


Not necessarily.

Flipping the cards does not prove that the Doppleganger actually saw what she said she saw.

Flipping the cards also does not prove that people didn't peek at cards when they shouldn't have during the night time (for example, Troublemaker could easily get away with looking at cards if he wanted to. Even if he makes a little noise, you can't assume he's looking because noise is normal)

Even if you see something is "off" when you flip the cards, there is no way to really know who rearranged the cards.


Anyway, if you can't trust players not to cheat, and you think that they will cheat just because they can get away with it, this just isn't the right game (or you have to play with a moderator).
 
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Alex G
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charlest wrote:
unonameless wrote:
So far the only way I see to play with doppelgänger is to have a non-player arbitrator. Since there is no way to find out if someone cheated, you wouldn't even KNOW you are playing with a cheater.


Or it's a five minute game and you should be able to trust the people you are playing with?


Length of the game doesn't matter. It's a game that sets the atmosphere of lying and trickery, yet relies entirely on player's honesty and good sportsmanship. I find that the two don't mix very well. It's like putting hockey players in full body armor and giving them wooden sticks, and then expecting them NOT to beat the living hell out of each other.
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Cameron McKenzie
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unonameless wrote:


Length of the game doesn't matter. It's a game that sets the atmosphere of lying and trickery, yet relies entirely on player's honesty and good sportsmanship. I find that the two don't mix very well.


I haven't had any issue. I don't think it's fair to assume that people will be less sportsmanlike than usual just because the game involves lying.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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unonameless wrote:
It's a game that sets the atmosphere of lying and trickery, yet relies entirely on player's honesty and good sportsmanship. I find that the two don't mix very well.

Strange, tell me more. I guess what you are saying that some people really can not separate make-believe from reality? (I.e. being in-character and still being able to follow the game rules at the same time.)
 
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Clyde W
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MasterDinadan wrote:
unonameless wrote:


Length of the game doesn't matter. It's a game that sets the atmosphere of lying and trickery, yet relies entirely on player's honesty and good sportsmanship. I find that the two don't mix very well.


I haven't had any issue. I don't think it's fair to assume that people will be less sportsmanlike than usual just because the game involves lying.
Agree. I have played this hundreds of times since I discovered it last March, and never once have I detected anyone cheating. Sure, maybe they were, but I've never seen it happen or caught it after the fact.

I think you're confused.
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Justin R
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Doppelganger's team is determined by the card he/she saw.

The Doppelganger could not cheat, because the only way the Doppelganger is bad is if he/she sees a werewolf, in which case that werewolf can verify (they looked at each other during the werewolf phase).

/thread
 
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Doppelganger can look at a minion, and thus be in the werewolf team without anyone knowing it. (So a cheater may claim seeing the minion card to win with werewolves.)
 
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Dok Indigo
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JJRR_Esq wrote:
Doppelganger's team is determined by the card he/she saw.

The Doppelganger could not cheat, because the only way the Doppelganger is bad is if he/she sees a werewolf, in which case that werewolf can verify (they looked at each other during the werewolf phase).

/thread


Of course the Doppelganger can cheat when seeing a Werewolf card. Just don't open your eyes with them!


Regardless what role he gets, he can just open his ees in his own DoppelGanger Minion phase to know all the Werewolves (if those are not cheating, of course).
 
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Justin R
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Hexendoktor wrote:
JJRR_Esq wrote:
Doppelganger's team is determined by the card he/she saw.

The Doppelganger could not cheat, because the only way the Doppelganger is bad is if he/she sees a werewolf, in which case that werewolf can verify (they looked at each other during the werewolf phase).

/thread


Of course the Doppelganger can cheat when seeing a Werewolf card. Just don't open your eyes with them!


Regardless what role he gets, he can just open his ees in his own DoppelGanger Minion phase to know all the Werewolves (if those are not cheating, of course).


The original question struck me as asking whether the Doppelganger can lie following a Doppelganger robbery, not as a general matter. Obviously the Doppelganger can lie in the first instance. And lying is not nearly as difficult as one of the posters above makes it out to be: he can keep looking at people's cards until he finds a role he likes.
 
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JD Farrell
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Obviously you can never know for sure whether or not the original Doppelgänger was lying, you just have to be able to trust your friends.

Personally in my group we play that a swapped Doppelgänger is treated as a normal villager, because I feel that part of the Robber's power is to know their team (prior to the chance of trouble being made at least). Similarly, the entire point of the Insomniac is to know their team, and if they don't then they're just losing the only power they have. I'd be happy to try having the card keep the new role though, that's just what my friends and I thought made most sense before we checked the rules.

Incidentally, a tad off-topic, but the subject title made me think of it. In a recent game, as the Robber, I ended up taking the Robber card from someone. I quickly worked out what happened, and at the end it was confirmed that the Doppelgänger viewed the Robber, then robbed the Robber, leading the Robber to rob the Robber.
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Kirk K

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unonameless wrote:
charlest wrote:
unonameless wrote:
So far the only way I see to play with doppelgänger is to have a non-player arbitrator. Since there is no way to find out if someone cheated, you wouldn't even KNOW you are playing with a cheater.


Or it's a five minute game and you should be able to trust the people you are playing with?


Length of the game doesn't matter. It's a game that sets the atmosphere of lying and trickery, yet relies entirely on player's honesty and good sportsmanship. I find that the two don't mix very well. It's like putting hockey players in full body armor and giving them wooden sticks, and then expecting them NOT to beat the living hell out of each other.


^ This.

You're sitting around the table with a group of people telling dozens of lies to each other, except for one thing that one person has to be absolutely honest about. It's not a matter of trust, it just doesn't fit with the flow of the game at all.
 
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