Mike Elliott
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While LCGs, Deckbuilders, and other "card games in a box" are very popular, most mass market stores will rarely touch a game in the $30 or more range, and certainly not in any significant quantities. Most of these stores want low price point items that can be bought on impulse purchase.

Could this game have been a box game with 200 dice and 150 cards? Possibly, but it would have been close to a $100 game and a "different" angry mob would be complaining about the price point.

The decisions made on this were designed to allow it to potentially be sold in mass market channels. If it does not hit those channels, WK will probably not make any money on it since the pricing structure is being subsidized by the theoretical sales volume that is beyond what will be sold in a couple thousand core hobby stores. Translation: You are getting the game cheaper than you would normally because it is positioned to be a potential mass market item. The starter is around 15 dollars for over 40 dice and over 30 cards, plus a couple of bags which I will grant look a little cheap, but for $15 I am not going to complain about not getting top of the line bags (and the bags are actually very durable despite looking like air sickness bags).

If you absolutely hate the collectible model, the game is playable with just the starter, or buy two starters and combine them for extra dice. With 3 variations of each starting hero and the fact that you can mix up the teams, you can easily get dozens of plays out of just the starter before you start getting any replay fatigue. I don't combine every Dominion set together when I play, so you don't have to a a completist to enjoy a game system.

Many of you might know that I spent about 10 years designing for Magic, and you may know that I was one of the founders of the Magic foil rarity system. I am not a huge fan of complicated rarity systems with lots of scarce items (especially if those are desirable for game play reasons), and I believe the research shows these are not particularly effective. However, having a blind purchase model where you don't get the same thing every time allows you to have the same product on the shelf for a longer time. I have talked to many core hobby store owners, and they have often said that many of the core hobby stores in our industry would not be alive if it was not for these collectible games.

The collectible scheme on this game is one of the more "friendly" collectible schemes. Every character has a common version. There are very few super rares and they are not that much harder to get than the rares. The "good" cards are spread out over all the rarities, and in many cases the common version may be the most powerful play version of that character. Most important, the game is about the dice. I am certain that one or more people will post a full set spoiler at some point and what you do in the privacy of your own homes with your dice and markers is not something I want to hear about.

Eric and I, and Wizkids do a number of games every year. We felt the collectible model for this one gave it the best chance of getting wider distribution and appealing to a larger audience, and we are perfectly happy to throw the angry "I hate collectibles" mob under the bus (or buses depending on how big the mob is) if they want to complain about getting 2 dice and 2 cards for $1, since we could not have done the variety and number of characters or hit even remotely close to these price points without using this model.

Take a look back at one of my earlier games with Wizkids, Star Trek Fleet Captains, done with Ethan Pasternack, if you want an example of how a high price point can limit the audience of a game. Do a quick search for "expensive" or similar threads and then come back and decide whether we made the right choice.

Mike
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caleb G.
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Bravo
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Patrick Dettmar
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exacty! thank you. how can you complain about $15 dollar starter and $1 packs? especially when you can get the starter online for $10, and packs at $.79. keep up the good work mike, I own and love several of your games (although I ditched quariors to pick up dice masters)
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M. S.
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Hi Mike,

well it is what it is. Thanks for sharing your your thoughts on this collectible stuff.

My "complains" go more in the direction to: Why haven`t you chosen a base game + addons...meaning the same way that you`ve did with Quarriors?The point with the collectible stuff is that you can get double stuff and "have to" trade it. I was so glad that this collectible stuff turned into something like LCGs (FFG) or several addons (like you did with quarrior). I would have wished that you would have chosen the way with the addons: Having a base game for 20 bucks + several defined addons with the same content in it.I`m not talking about a game with "200 dice and 150 cards for 100 bucks". I really would have loved to see a base game like it is right now + real addons so that this double counting of already bought stuff is just not given.

Regards
Mario
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Baz Hemmons
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Superb post. Personally the collectible aspect is part of the appeal for me. I haven't been into a collectible game since I was a kid, & I quite look forward to the mini-thrill of the blind booster. If what you say about the not-too-agressive rarities (combined with the pocket-change boosters) means that I can collect/trade towards the full set without crazily blowing the bank, that's just great. Plus of course the killer theme and a good looking game. Hopefully there'll be some sort of decent organised play scene (even here in the UK), that'd just be the icing on the cake.
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Jeff Bogle
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The Wife and I support this idea and you are so right, HOW can anyone go wrong with price points like these? I am NOT a MTG fan but I do respect what it has done for the Gaming/TCG "world" and even I hate to admit that without MTG and its blind pack thing that we would most likely NOT have many hobby shops to even get these cool new age LCGs and such INTO. I for one hope this game catches on and this is def the way to go about it! You have my support (I just wish it could count for more)
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Kirk Bauer
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Thanks, Mike. Now if I could just find a place to pre-order it from. And, ideally, a place I can order the upcoming player mats from!
 
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Brandon H.
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I was initially kind of disappointed about this game having a collectible model, but over the last few months I've moved to "cautiously optimistic." It's going to hinge on the experience I have opening up my booster box. I'll especially be looking at what the diminishing marginal returns are on the later packs. I'm not so worried about the dice - from what I've seen, I doubt that with one box I'll have more than a few dice that exceed the "max" allowable for a given character - but I know less about the way the cards are distributed so I'm a little worried there. I hope I'm not seeing mostly duplicates by the time I finish the box. If you can really get near a complete set in a box and a half, I think I'm going to be really satisfied.

Can you share any of how the 4-tier rarity scheme will work, with only 2 cards per booster? With Magic, rarity is how many cards of each tier are in the pack (something like 10 common/3 uncommon/1 rare or mythic). Is there an uncommon or higher in each pack, or will some packs just have 2 commons?
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Darrell Goodridge
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I'd love for it to go mass market. I could drive 1 mile to Target or Wal-mart or 20 miles to my comic store who may or may not carry it.

I agree, as far as collectible models go, this one is super friendly. For example, if you buy a starter you get over 40 dice as you said. Buying just ONE booster for ONE dollar increases your collection by 5%. You could easily drop a fiver every time you're in a store that sells it, and still not break the bank. While I do like the knowing what you're getting aspect of an LCG type format, I think this method will be just fine. Especially to those who have played any type of Collectible game before.
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Nick Fleece
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That was one of the greatest things I've ever read. i fully agree with everything you said. I am so excited for this game. I've never even been a big super hero fan but the theme is more appealing to me than quarriors. And the collectable model is very exciting to me. I can't wait to be at the grocery store and toss in a pack or two with my bananas and milk at such a low price point.
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Kirk Bauer
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With preorders selling out (from what I can see) can we still expect enough supply of base games and boosters?
 
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Nathaniel Baker
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I personally cant wait. And I hate collectible models, but this is the least expensive I think there has EVER been.

That and come on folks. You know super rares will be out there eventually for you completionists...

Now if only another Quarriors expansion would come out...
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Chris Morris
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I can't wait to get into this, but the more I read, the less I feel like I have to buy to start off. At first, I was thinking of picking up a starter and 2 cases of boosters, but now I think I'll pare it down to 1 box or maybe a box and a half at most.

The other thing that I am happy about is how "crappy" the dice bags are. I mean, a lot of games include a bag that is half-assed that you sort of want to replace, but this one goes all out and makes a really cheap bag that you will want to replace right away. In fact, I think I'm picking up a couple of bags next week, well before the game itself even comes out!!
 
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Thanks foe sharing, Mike. Love the insight into the desisions.

Our locals (who really like Quarriors) are very excited about this and the OP system and started putting in their pre-orders as soon as the videos started to surface.

Lordnameci wrote:
Could this game have been a box game with 200 dice and 150 cards? Possibly, but it would have been close to a $100 game and a "different" angry mob would be complaining about the price point.


Loved this part the most. laugh


knatebaker wrote:
Now if only another Quarriors expansion would come out...


I think Quarriors: Light vs Dark is still on track for June...

http://heroclix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Quarriors-Lig...
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Is Wizkids planning to support organized play?
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Lordnameci wrote:
the collectible model for this one gave it the best chance of getting wider distribution and appealing to a larger audience, and we are perfectly happy to throw the angry "I hate collectibles" mob under the bus


There are plenty of ways you could have released this game without the CCG model, but you don't need me to tell you that. You are after "wide distribution" and a "larger audience." (More honestly, "increased sales.") That's ok. You are welcome to try to make as much money as possible. But don't pretend it was the only way to get the full game out there. Because that's BS.

You are using the CCG model to make money off of people who, in many instances, will not get the product they were hoping for in return. And you are ok with that. Because money. "But no one is forcing them to buy it. You only need the core. It's only $0.99." That's all true, but you know they will want it. And for $0.99, they can easily rationalize spending the money on something that may be a bust. It's kind of like what keeps gamblers gambling...there's still a chance they will get what they want. So they spend.

Oh, but that's a good thing--they spend more, and stores get to stay open. Hurray! But people are still spending wastefully, and they will spend a lot more than they would have if they could have just bought the game and expansions. Any store that needs me to blindly throw my money at them in hopes that I can get what I want in return can just close right now.

Basically, you are ok with losing the support of people who otherwise would have purchased every bit of it because you will still make lots of money from people with plenty of disposable income or a lack of financial prudence. And you've come to bgg to let everyone know it. Cool story, bro.

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BC Wendel
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It feels just like the free-to-play system they use on all those crappy phone games these days.

Most people are gonna pass, some people are gonna buy some, and a few people are going to be bottomless pits of money who spend like crazy. It's a viable business strategy, it's working like gangbusters for some companies. I can understand the high price of Quarriors scaring people away - it scared me away until I played it and enjoyed it and decided to dive in.

I already have a friend who is willing to trade our extra dice for this game, so it should work out okay, but if $50 for a game is pricey then $90 for a bunch of boosters to get a full set is super expensive. But I hope in the end it works out well for the game makers and the gamers both. We shall see.
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I was going to post something, but I have to go get this smoke out of my a$$.
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traitorarmor wrote:
Thanks foe sharing, Mike. Love the insight into the desisions.

Our locals (who really like Quarriors) are very excited about this and the OP system and started putting in their pre-orders as soon as the videos started to surface.

Lordnameci wrote:
Could this game have been a box game with 200 dice and 150 cards? Possibly, but it would have been close to a $100 game and a "different" angry mob would be complaining about the price point.


Loved this part the most. laugh


knatebaker wrote:
Now if only another Quarriors expansion would come out...


I think Quarriors: Light vs Dark is still on track for June...

http://heroclix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Quarriors-Lig...


Gah! I hadnt seen the news for Light vs. DARK! thank you.

As for you MFK, considering the fact that most retailers preorders and most from ACD distributing itself are sold out, Im pretty sure hes gaining more than losing at this point, and if you arent going to enjoy a game that looks great, and even .99 will spruce it up at all, then Im sorry we are losing you.
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Nicholas Palmer
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metalfacekevin wrote:
Lordnameci wrote:
the collectible model for this one gave it the best chance of getting wider distribution and appealing to a larger audience, and we are perfectly happy to throw the angry "I hate collectibles" mob under the bus


There are plenty of ways you could have released this game without the CCG model, but you don't need me to tell you that. You are after "wide distribution" and a "larger audience." (More honestly, "increased sales.") That's ok. You are welcome to try to make as much money as possible. But don't pretend it was the only way to get the full game out there. Because that's BS.


Ok, let's say they did release it as a big box with all the dice and cards in the first set. So 4 of each dice type (I don't know the maxes necessary to each character, but I'm not counting the sidekick and basic energy dice so I'm still underselling here.) From the number of cards listed in the set, we are talking about 40ish characters. That is 180 dice. Add in the 130ish cards.

We have now surpassed the total number of dice (slightly) and the number of cards (by a lot) of the Quarriors base game + Quarmageddon. The total cost of these two together are $115 retail.

It is estimated that to have a high chance of getting at least 1 of each card in the set, you would need to buy ~90 packs (mentioned by one of the designers). 90 packs at $1 + 1 starter set at $15 = $105. So for more cards, and more dice, and oh yeah, you will have a bunch of extra cards to build extra teams to be available to you without breaking down things, you are paying $10 less.

By getting it into mainstream stores, the extra sales means the ability to lower prices across the board. You actually are statistically likely to get more for less, EVEN IF YOU ARE TRYING TO COLLECT THE WHOLE SET.

So yeah.
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metalfacekevin wrote:
Lordnameci wrote:
the collectible model for this one gave it the best chance of getting wider distribution and appealing to a larger audience, and we are perfectly happy to throw the angry "I hate collectibles" mob under the bus


There are plenty of ways you could have released this game without the CCG model, but you don't need me to tell you that. You are after "wide distribution" and a "larger audience." (More honestly, "increased sales.") That's ok. You are welcome to try to make as much money as possible. But don't pretend it was the only way to get the full game out there. Because that's BS.

You are using the CCG model to make money off of people who, in many instances, will not get the product they were hoping for in return. And you are ok with that. Because money. "But no one is forcing them to buy it. You only need the core. It's only $0.99." That's all true, but you know they will want it. And for $0.99, they can easily rationalize spending the money on something that may be a bust. It's kind of like what keeps gamblers gambling...there's still a chance they will get what they want. So they spend.

Oh, but that's a good thing--they spend more, and stores get to stay open. Hurray! But people are still spending wastefully, and they will spend a lot more than they would have if they could have just bought the game and expansions. Any store that needs me to blindly throw my money at them in hopes that I can get what I want in return can just close right now.

Basically, you are ok with losing the support of people who otherwise would have purchased every bit of it because you will still make lots of money from people with plenty of disposable income or a lack of financial prudence. And you've come to bgg to let everyone know it. Cool story, bro.





Agreed.

WADR to the original poster, can you say "strawman"? Well, it's either this collectible thing or charging $30 and nobody being interested.

You could have charged the EXACT same amount of money for the beginner set, and the EXACT same amount for the packs, and you'd get no complaint here. The problem is the randomization, not the price. Can you address that point please?

Also, kudos for calling detractors of the model an "angry mob." In fact, I find the entire tone of the OP offensive in its lecturing tone. We understand the model, we just see it for what it is - a money grab. Please don't attempt to claim otherwise.




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Jesse Olivier
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Ronaldo wrote:
Is Wizkids planning to support organized play?


yea. I dont remember where i read it but i do know the first prize is the phoenix force and a dice
 
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Nicholas Palmer
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Oh, and an added bit:

Keep in mind that even though my calculations may be a bit off (I probably am not 100% right on the retail cost of quarriors, its annoying to find proper retail prices listed on things), Quarriors didn't have to pay in a licensing fee either, meaning that if you can get a full set of way more dice and way more cards for less or even around the same money, you should be thanking the model that is getting it the mass market store shelf presence, because that wouldn't have happened otherwise.
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Thank you sir....may I have another
Thank you sir....may I have another
Thank you sir....may I have another
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Translation: Hello, BGG. Wizkids is interested in the mass-market, not BGG. Thanks and buh-bye.
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