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Subject: Open Money rss

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suPUR DUEper
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Open money seems to make it a bit too easy to calculate whether to throw your support behind a Topple.

For example, if two players are strong in a particular type of prestige, the one with less money will be unlikely to assist in a Topple knowing that he will certainly lose due to a shortage of cash.

If money was hidden, a player who has considerable prestige is more likely to help orchestrate a Topple than resist it.

Given the uncertain nature of a revolution, I think from a thematic perspective it makes sense to have money hidden.

Thoughts?
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Martin G
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What do you mean by 'throw your support behind a Topple' and 'assist in a Topple'? A Topple is only ever each individual player against his tripartite (Diaz + the two weakest players), you can't combine forces.

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Eugene
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TedW wrote:
Given the uncertain nature of a revolution, I think from a thematic perspective it makes sense to have money hidden.

From a thematic perspective, it makes no sense to have artificial and gamey tiebreakers. And yet we accept them willingly because, well, we're playing a game.
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Jonathan Harrison
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I think he means buy a Topple and use its status quo side for no modifier to the Topple.
 
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John
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It's been my experience that during a topple everyone does their best to stop the topple even at their own expense, ie flipping their Hacendado or using their partners, whatever it takes to keep the game going.

Regarding the money you have a general idea how much people have but sometimes you don't know specifically how much they have. A majority of the games I have played came down to the money.
I think hiding money may slow the game down
 
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suPUR DUEper
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qwertymartin wrote:
What do you mean by 'throw your support behind a Topple' and 'assist in a Topple'? A Topple is only ever each individual player against his tripartite (Diaz + the two weakest players), you can't combine forces.



Things I can do to assist a Topple:
-change the regime
-play the minus modifier
-don't discard a partner card

However, if we both have, say Outrage, but you have more money than me, I am unlikely to do any of those things. In fact, I am more likely to join the resisters.

With hidden money, I am more likely to mistakenly support a Topple even though by doing so I am giving the game to you....
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suPUR DUEper
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garygarison wrote:
TedW wrote:
Given the uncertain nature of a revolution, I think from a thematic perspective it makes sense to have money hidden.

From a thematic perspective, it makes no sense to have artificial and gamey tiebreakers. And yet we accept them willingly because, well, we're playing a game.


I am not sure that I consider money gamey in this case.

Being able to calculate with 100% certainty than if you and I overthrow the government that I will win/lose is gamey however.
 
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Martin G
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TedW wrote:

Things I can do to assist a Topple:
-change the regime
-play the minus modifier
-don't discard a partner card


I would only do the second if I was going to win the Topple and I would never do the third if it meant someone else won.

TedW wrote:
With hidden money, I am more likely to mistakenly support a Topple even though by doing so I am giving the game to you....


So you want to encourage people screwing up and giving the game to someone else? No, I don't think that's a good idea
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suPUR DUEper
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Courtknight wrote:


Regarding the money you have a general idea how much people have but sometimes you don't know specifically how much they have.


How can you not know it?
 
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suPUR DUEper
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qwertymartin wrote:
TedW wrote:

Things I can do to assist a Topple:
-change the regime
-play the minus modifier
-don't discard a partner card


I would only do the second if I was going to win the Topple and I would never do the third if it meant someone else won.


That's the whole point. You wouldn't do these things because you can see that you will lose on money.


qwertymartin wrote:
TedW wrote:
With hidden money, I am more likely to mistakenly support a Topple even though by doing so I am giving the game to you....


So you want to encourage people screwing up and giving the game to someone else? No, I don't think that's a good idea


It is not about having people "screw up". It is about making it so a Topple is not mechanical and injecting some uncertainty into the proceedings. Makes the decision whether to assist/resist a Topple infinitely more interesting
 
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Martin G
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But how often do you actually see the situation where two players can both Topple in the same Prestige type and it comes down to money? It's very rare in my experience (and impossible in 2p or 3p).
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suPUR DUEper
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Twice today.
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Eugene
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Crapshoots aren't interesting. Interesting decisions are interesting.
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suPUR DUEper
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garygarison wrote:
Crapshoots aren't interesting. Interesting decisions are interesting.


Ha! Really? Guess that's why no one in the universe likes Texas Hold 'Em.
 
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Martin G
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Huh, weird. Well, I wouldn't much enjoy winning by having somebody else fail to track my money and trigger a Topple that loses them the game. But if you think it would make it more interesting for you, go for it.
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Justus
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I always play with open money.
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Eugene
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TedW wrote:
garygarison wrote:
Crapshoots aren't interesting. Interesting decisions are interesting.

Ha! Really? Guess that's why no one in the universe likes Texas Hold 'Em.

In Texas Hold 'Em, money is open.
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suPUR DUEper
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garygarison wrote:
TedW wrote:
garygarison wrote:
Crapshoots aren't interesting. Interesting decisions are interesting.

Ha! Really? Guess that's why no one in the universe likes Texas Hold 'Em.

In Texas Hold 'Em, money is open.


shake

The two hole cards are hidden.


 
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Eugene
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Unlike earned money in Pax Porfiriana, those two hole cards are not trackable with pencil and paper. Or an excellent memory.
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suPUR DUEper
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garygarison wrote:
Unlike earned money in Pax Porfiriana, those two hole cards are not trackable with pencil and paper. Or an excellent memory.


Exactly! So now we are getting somewhere!

In Texas Hold 'Em the tension comes from not knowing what the hole cards are.
In Pax, there is no tension because I can count the money.

Now what I am proposing is something between the two, namely hidden money. With hidden money you could keep track of all the money earned and spent during the game. But let's be realistic, outside of Rain Man nobody is going to do that. Instead, you will only have a general idea of how much money each player has based on their income and spending habits. Thus when confronted with a Topple situation you are going to have to factor some uncertainty into your decision making process instead of leaning over and counting how much money your neighbor has.....
 
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Eugene
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In your mind, would keeping chips hidden in a Texas Hold'em tournament improve the game? Because that's the correct analogy.
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suPUR DUEper
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garygarison wrote:
In your mind, would keeping chips hidden in a Texas Hold'em tournament improve the game? Because that's the correct analogy.


No, it is an incorrect analogy.

We are talking about hidden information affecting your decisions.

In Poker, the hidden info takes the form of the hole cards
In Pax, the hidden info I am proposing is in the form of money.
(and in Puerto Rico it is VP chips, Battlestar Galactica your identity, Rex your secret victory condition, Age of Empites III the strength of the natives, BIOS Megafuana upcoming catastrophes, etc). The form of the hidden info is irrelevant. The point is, each game has hidden info which keeps you from making a completely informed decision.
 
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J C Lawrence
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garygarison wrote:
Crapshoots aren't interesting. Interesting decisions are interesting.


An interesting decision: A decision which involves trade-offs among multiple ambiguous-but-yet-predictable long-term commitments.

Mere uncertainty doesn't make an interesting decision for me. Oh, I don't know? Well, then I don't know. No fuss, no muss, no angst, not tension, no questions, just move forward with the bits that are actually interesting and the unknown will resolve itself in whatever way it does, and will do so without any of my attention.
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Cole Wehrle
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TedW wrote:

In Poker, the hidden info takes the form of the hole cards
In Pax, the hidden info I am proposing is in the form of money.
(and in Puerto Rico it is VP chips, Battlestar Galactica your identity, Rex your secret victory condition, Age of Empites III the strength of the natives, BIOS Megafuana upcoming catastrophes, etc). The form of the hidden info is irrelevant. The point is, each game has hidden info which keeps you from making a completely informed decision.


Your examples are all over the place. Money in Pax is easily track-able, like VP chits in Puerto Rico, but unlike secret identities in BSG.

Outside of the order the market cards come out and the composition of the the deck there is no hidden information in Pax.
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Justus
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TedW wrote:
garygarison wrote:
In your mind, would keeping chips hidden in a Texas Hold'em tournament improve the game? Because that's the correct analogy.


No, it is an incorrect analogy.

We are talking about hidden information affecting your decisions.

In Poker, the hidden info takes the form of the hole cards
In Pax, the hidden info I am proposing is in the form of money.
(and in Puerto Rico it is VP chips, Battlestar Galactica your identity, Rex your secret victory condition, Age of Empites III the strength of the natives, BIOS Megafuana upcoming catastrophes, etc). The form of the hidden info is irrelevant. The point is, each game has hidden info which keeps you from making a completely informed decision.


If you want a hidden information to make the game more exciting, try a different game. I'm not a huge HTI fan nor hater, but least in my opinion Pax is plenty exciting I don't want to waste the memory overhead in tracking people's finances.

Now No Thanks, that plays well with either open or closed money. I just don't see that being the case with Pax.

And for the record, Gary is correct in his application of the Texas Hold 'Em analogy.
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