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Subject: Help me exercise my 2nd amendment right (aka calling scribidinus!) rss

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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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I'm in the market for a beginner rifle. My constraints are as follows:

1) Entry level. I've never owned a rifle before. I have limited experience with several different varieties from muzzle loader to modern "assault type" weapons with varying degrees of caliber from .22 to "ow, my shoulder hurts." Never fully auto, but as I can't buy one of those anyway, that's probably moot.

2) On a budget. $800 to be exact.

3) Must fit reasonably well into a low-end safe. I don't have the safe yet, but the budget for that is about $350. I'm sure you'll let me know if any of this is totally unrealistic.

4) Must be able to fit a scope.

5) Ideally suitable for hunting small game up through deer. Doesn't need to take out a grizzly with one shot, but I may want to use it for hunting some day.

6) Ideally ammunition would be common and relatively inexpensive.

Any ideas?
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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Koldfoot wrote:
You may not want one. Other than that, Why can't you buy fully auto?

Price? They are legal.


Price. Hassle. Cost of ammo. They're not entry level by any means. It's just a non-starter for me for now. Maybe some day.
 
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A Ruger 10/22 is a good starter rifle. The rimfire ammo will help with the afore-mentioned high cost of ammo. It will be good for basic target practice and small game. It is cheap enough you should still have some left over to purchase a real deer rifle later, if you decide you want that.
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John O'Haver
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I'd love to help but my real interest and experience is with handguns, primarily for personal defense and target shooting. Reads like you have as much or more rifle experience as I do. (That's all you really need to read of this post.)

Hunting is typically accomplished outdoors. For me that's a transition space between two indoor destinations and usually not a destination itself.


I have kept exactly one rifle, a Ruger 1022 (.22 caliber) tricked out as bench style target rifle. Every other rifle that I've had just reconfirmed my preference for handguns. Most INDOOR ranges only go out to 25 yards, too short to make shooting a scoped rile fun.


That said, it sounds like your primary purpose of owning a rifle is just to own one. For home defense I'd recommend a pump shotgun first then a pistol.


There are a lot of hunting calibers, most of which I know nothing about. Talk to an expert. Otherwise .223 is probably the most popular rifle caliber above .22 LR. I do not know how efficient .223 would be at bringing down deer but you have a lot of choices of styles and brands in that price range from bolt action to semi-auto.

I was looking at a Savage Edge bolt action in .223 a couple years ago just to have one but decided that wasn't a good enough reason to spend the money.


A rifle sized safe for one gun? Most new guns come with a lockable device that blocks access to the trigger or prevents a round from being inserted in the chamber, if you have kids about. But it's up to you. A decent scope is probably more than you think. I'd be tempted to secure the guns workings with a lockable device and spend the rest of the money on the scope.

Ammo is no longer cheap and plentiful. If you buy by the box, most retailers limit the number of boxes you can buy in popular calibers. Personal defense handgun ammo seems to be more plentiful and has escalated the least in price but at a dollar a round it's never been cheap. Most pistol calibers have doubled or tripled in price for range ammo when and where you can find it by the box. I have no idea what rifle caliber ammo is up to now.


I'll second Koldie's advice to talk to several gun resellers. I have a guy that I buy hand guns from but I have another guy that's an expert on ARs if I ever decided to get one and another guy I'd go to if I ever decided to hunt.




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Josh
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I know I'll butcher the designation in written form, but friends I know who hunt and want power but don't care abt auto like to use 30/06. It's a weighty round and will put down game better than smaller calibre which will leave you chasing blood trails.

Myself I don't hunt, just passing on what I've heard.
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Michael Carter
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30/06 can be a bit of a pricey round. .223 is alright for deer. For squirrels and rabbits, a .22 or a shotgun works best. There is a big difference between shooting deer and shooting small game.

Unfortunately, re-sellers have been buying up the .22 LR supply and jacking up the prices to absurd levels.
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John O'Haver
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I love my Ruger 1022.


Stock Ruger 1022. This is what mine looked like when new for $199.





After $500 worth of upgrades including stock, barrel, compensator, trigger job and scope. The wisdom of this investment is debatable but it shoots like this at fifty yards


I have put 5 in the same sized bulleys at 100 yards with good ammo.


I can find .22 ammo at Shooters Supply, my regular gun shop. Never see it at Walmart anymore. Shooters does limit purchases to 2 boxes per day but it is close to other places I go, so I accumlated 800 to 1000 rounds of different quality and brands over a couple weeks last fall. According to the NRA, that's why there is a shortage, gun owners are buying a lot more ammo than they plan on shooting in the near future.

As a sidebar, in order to meet a perceived price point, one brand, American Eagle, is selling 40 round boxes instead of 50 rounds for $2.39. It says 40 rounds in a 5 point font on the box. This was embarrassing when I grabbed a 40 round box to take to a competitive shoot that required 50 rounds.





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Dave G
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This conversation reminded me that I was interested in learning to shoot and it was on my list of things to do when I finished school, so I looked up some local classes. WTF? This shit is expensive! $175 for a basic pistol class seems prohibitive.
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Dave G
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bjlillo wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
This conversation reminded me that I was interested in learning to shoot and it was on my list of things to do when I finished school, so I looked up some local classes. WTF? This shit is expensive! $175 for a basic pistol class seems prohibitive.


I'll give you a class for free this summer up at the land.


I may just take you up on that. My wife used to do some trap shooting in college, so even she knows more about guns than I do.
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Dan Schaeffer
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
This conversation reminded me that I was interested in learning to shoot and it was on my list of things to do when I finished school, so I looked up some local classes. WTF? This shit is expensive! $175 for a basic pistol class seems prohibitive.


I'll give you a class for free this summer up at the land.


I may just take you up on that. Julia used to do some trap shooting in college, so even my wife knows more about guns than I do.


I might like to get in on that. I haven't fired a gun since my summer camp riflery courses about 1000 years ago.
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Golux13 wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
This conversation reminded me that I was interested in learning to shoot and it was on my list of things to do when I finished school, so I looked up some local classes. WTF? This shit is expensive! $175 for a basic pistol class seems prohibitive.


I'll give you a class for free this summer up at the land.


I may just take you up on that. Julia used to do some trap shooting in college, so even my wife knows more about guns than I do.


I might like to get in on that. I haven't fired a gun since my summer camp riflery courses about 1000 years ago.


Plus that makes it less likely that BJ kills me and makes me into sausage. Witnesses and all.
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bjlillo wrote:
A Mini-14 (.223 caliber)


mini-14's are kind of pricey. Can you find on for less than $900 nowadays?
 
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Dan Schaeffer
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
Golux13 wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
This conversation reminded me that I was interested in learning to shoot and it was on my list of things to do when I finished school, so I looked up some local classes. WTF? This shit is expensive! $175 for a basic pistol class seems prohibitive.


I'll give you a class for free this summer up at the land.


I may just take you up on that. Julia used to do some trap shooting in college, so even my wife knows more about guns than I do.


I might like to get in on that. I haven't fired a gun since my summer camp riflery courses about 1000 years ago.


Plus that makes it less likely that BJ kills me and makes me into sausage. Witnesses and all.


I don't know. I like sausage.
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J
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Golux13 wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
This conversation reminded me that I was interested in learning to shoot and it was on my list of things to do when I finished school, so I looked up some local classes. WTF? This shit is expensive! $175 for a basic pistol class seems prohibitive.


I'll give you a class for free this summer up at the land.


I may just take you up on that. Julia used to do some trap shooting in college, so even my wife knows more about guns than I do.


I might like to get in on that. I haven't fired a gun since my summer camp riflery courses about 1000 years ago.

You're a genius, BJ. You'll have these guys voting for a libertarian in no time.
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Totally tangential discussion with no relation to the OP:

I always feel like the odd man out in any discussion of guns. While I'm the son of an avid gun collector and as such grew up with very basic gun safety, I've never fired a weapon and don't foresee ever doing so. With my vision, firearms would be effectively useless to me. So, I'm hardly a gun nut and have a natural inclination against guns personally.

Yet I also think the purpose of the second amendment is without serious question to arm citizens well enough that they could in principle overthrow the gov't, especially the federal gov't. Frankly, by the plain sense of it, citizens ought to be able to get weapons up to and including nuclear arms.

At the same time, that's not very practical and so I think the politicians need be forced to sit down and hammer out a bill that everyone can agree on so that it passes the amendment process to clarify what the people of the US want the 2nd amendment to mean practically. Of course, that's never going to happen.

Without such an amendment, it doe leave open politicians whittling away at the 2nd Amendment, sating, "Why would anyone need [x-type of weapon]?" until in theory the 2nd Amendment applies but anything anyone might consider is effectively banned.

Bringing it round to the OP:

So if some anti-gun person asked you, "Why do you need a rifle?" what would your response be?
 
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jarredscott78 wrote:
Golux13 wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
This conversation reminded me that I was interested in learning to shoot and it was on my list of things to do when I finished school, so I looked up some local classes. WTF? This shit is expensive! $175 for a basic pistol class seems prohibitive.


I'll give you a class for free this summer up at the land.


I may just take you up on that. Julia used to do some trap shooting in college, so even my wife knows more about guns than I do.


I might like to get in on that. I haven't fired a gun since my summer camp riflery courses about 1000 years ago.

You're a genius, BJ. You'll have these guys voting for a libertarian in no time.


What an odd world you live in, where learning how to fire a gun can change the way somebody votes.
 
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Golux13 wrote:
jarredscott78 wrote:
Golux13 wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
This conversation reminded me that I was interested in learning to shoot and it was on my list of things to do when I finished school, so I looked up some local classes. WTF? This shit is expensive! $175 for a basic pistol class seems prohibitive.


I'll give you a class for free this summer up at the land.


I may just take you up on that. Julia used to do some trap shooting in college, so even my wife knows more about guns than I do.


I might like to get in on that. I haven't fired a gun since my summer camp riflery courses about 1000 years ago.

You're a genius, BJ. You'll have these guys voting for a libertarian in no time.


What an odd world you live in, where learning how to fire a gun can change the way somebody votes.


Pre-guns, Jarred volunteered for the Dukakis campaign.
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If you intend to hunt, be aware that rounds for small game will usually be too small for deer, while reliable deer loads will be too big for small game. .223 sorta splits the difference, but many folks consider that too light for deer, and in some areas it is actually illegal to hunt deer with .223.


I also came to suggest a Mini-14 but it now looks like they are going for almost $200 more than they usually did.
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JoshBot wrote:
If you intend to hunt, be aware that rounds for small game will usually be too small for deer, while reliable deer loads will be too big for small game. .223 sorta splits the difference, but many folks consider that too light for deer, and in some areas it is actually illegal to hunt deer with .223.

This. I recommend a 30.30, .270, or 7mm. You can easily hunt deer with these but they're smaller than what you'd want for large game such as moose and bear.

My knowledge is limited so I wouldn't be able to tell you which if these is better than the rest.
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whac3 wrote:
Totally tangential discussion with no relation to the OP:

I always feel like the odd man out in any discussion of guns. While I'm the son of an avid gun collector and as such grew up with very basic gun safety, I've never fired a weapon and don't foresee ever doing so. With my vision, firearms would be effectively useless to me. So, I'm hardly a gun nut and have a natural inclination against guns personally.

Yet I also think the purpose of the second amendment is without serious question to arm citizens well enough that they could in principle overthrow the gov't, especially the federal gov't. Frankly, by the plain sense of it, citizens ought to be able to get weapons up to and including nuclear arms.

At the same time, that's not very practical and so I think the politicians need be forced to sit down and hammer out a bill that everyone can agree on so that it passes the amendment process to clarify what the people of the US want the 2nd amendment to mean practically. Of course, that's never going to happen.

Without such an amendment, it doe leave open politicians whittling away at the 2nd Amendment, sating, "Why would anyone need [x-type of weapon]?" until in theory the 2nd Amendment applies but anything anyone might consider is effectively banned.

Bringing it round to the OP:

So if some anti-gun person asked you, "Why do you need a rifle?" what would your response be?


I don't need one right this second, but I may need one in the future. I can't predict what situations might arise where I would be glad to have a rifle, but I can certainly imagine many, many different scenarios that have varying degrees of plausibility. Anywhere from the a zombie apocalypse (least plausible at zero) to the breakdown of society after a terrorist attack or collapse of the economy (most plausible at somewhere between "not out of the question" and "likely")

In the mean time, I will enjoy shooting at targets and possibly hunting for sport (and meat).
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bjlillo wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
A Mini-14 (.223 caliber)


mini-14's are kind of pricey. Can you find on for less than $900 nowadays?


Huh. I don't know. I've had mine for 22 years now. It would be unfortunate if the price has risen significantly.


I only ask as I was my grand dads executor of his will, and sold a mini-14 for close to a grand. And I think it was just basic ranch rifle, with a folding stock.

I would have kept it, but mini-14's kick like a son of a bitch.
 
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ejmowrer wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Totally tangential discussion with no relation to the OP:

I always feel like the odd man out in any discussion of guns. While I'm the son of an avid gun collector and as such grew up with very basic gun safety, I've never fired a weapon and don't foresee ever doing so. With my vision, firearms would be effectively useless to me. So, I'm hardly a gun nut and have a natural inclination against guns personally.

Yet I also think the purpose of the second amendment is without serious question to arm citizens well enough that they could in principle overthrow the gov't, especially the federal gov't. Frankly, by the plain sense of it, citizens ought to be able to get weapons up to and including nuclear arms.

At the same time, that's not very practical and so I think the politicians need be forced to sit down and hammer out a bill that everyone can agree on so that it passes the amendment process to clarify what the people of the US want the 2nd amendment to mean practically. Of course, that's never going to happen.

Without such an amendment, it doe leave open politicians whittling away at the 2nd Amendment, sating, "Why would anyone need [x-type of weapon]?" until in theory the 2nd Amendment applies but anything anyone might consider is effectively banned.

Bringing it round to the OP:

So if some anti-gun person asked you, "Why do you need a rifle?" what would your response be?


I don't need one right this second, but I may need one in the future. I can't predict what situations might arise where I would be glad to have a rifle, but I can certainly imagine many, many different scenarios that have varying degrees of plausibility. Anywhere from the a zombie apocalypse (least plausible at zero) to the breakdown of society after a terrorist attack or collapse of the economy (most plausible at somewhere between "not out of the question" and "likely")

In the mean time, I will enjoy shooting at targets and possibly hunting for sport (and meat).

Bingo.

Why is this really different than asking an archery enthusiast why they need a bow?
 
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whac3 wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Totally tangential discussion with no relation to the OP:

I always feel like the odd man out in any discussion of guns. While I'm the son of an avid gun collector and as such grew up with very basic gun safety, I've never fired a weapon and don't foresee ever doing so. With my vision, firearms would be effectively useless to me. So, I'm hardly a gun nut and have a natural inclination against guns personally.

Yet I also think the purpose of the second amendment is without serious question to arm citizens well enough that they could in principle overthrow the gov't, especially the federal gov't. Frankly, by the plain sense of it, citizens ought to be able to get weapons up to and including nuclear arms.

At the same time, that's not very practical and so I think the politicians need be forced to sit down and hammer out a bill that everyone can agree on so that it passes the amendment process to clarify what the people of the US want the 2nd amendment to mean practically. Of course, that's never going to happen.

Without such an amendment, it doe leave open politicians whittling away at the 2nd Amendment, sating, "Why would anyone need [x-type of weapon]?" until in theory the 2nd Amendment applies but anything anyone might consider is effectively banned.

Bringing it round to the OP:

So if some anti-gun person asked you, "Why do you need a rifle?" what would your response be?


I don't need one right this second, but I may need one in the future. I can't predict what situations might arise where I would be glad to have a rifle, but I can certainly imagine many, many different scenarios that have varying degrees of plausibility. Anywhere from the a zombie apocalypse (least plausible at zero) to the breakdown of society after a terrorist attack or collapse of the economy (most plausible at somewhere between "not out of the question" and "likely")

In the mean time, I will enjoy shooting at targets and possibly hunting for sport (and meat).

Bingo.

Why is this really different than asking an archery enthusiast why they need a bow?


I need one of those, too.
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bjlillo wrote:
whac3 wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Totally tangential discussion with no relation to the OP:

I always feel like the odd man out in any discussion of guns. While I'm the son of an avid gun collector and as such grew up with very basic gun safety, I've never fired a weapon and don't foresee ever doing so. With my vision, firearms would be effectively useless to me. So, I'm hardly a gun nut and have a natural inclination against guns personally.

Yet I also think the purpose of the second amendment is without serious question to arm citizens well enough that they could in principle overthrow the gov't, especially the federal gov't. Frankly, by the plain sense of it, citizens ought to be able to get weapons up to and including nuclear arms.

At the same time, that's not very practical and so I think the politicians need be forced to sit down and hammer out a bill that everyone can agree on so that it passes the amendment process to clarify what the people of the US want the 2nd amendment to mean practically. Of course, that's never going to happen.

Without such an amendment, it doe leave open politicians whittling away at the 2nd Amendment, sating, "Why would anyone need [x-type of weapon]?" until in theory the 2nd Amendment applies but anything anyone might consider is effectively banned.

Bringing it round to the OP:

So if some anti-gun person asked you, "Why do you need a rifle?" what would your response be?


I don't need one right this second, but I may need one in the future. I can't predict what situations might arise where I would be glad to have a rifle, but I can certainly imagine many, many different scenarios that have varying degrees of plausibility. Anywhere from the a zombie apocalypse (least plausible at zero) to the breakdown of society after a terrorist attack or collapse of the economy (most plausible at somewhere between "not out of the question" and "likely")

In the mean time, I will enjoy shooting at targets and possibly hunting for sport (and meat).

Bingo.

Why is this really different than asking an archery enthusiast why they need a bow?


No, the correct answer to your question of "Why do you need a rifle," is "It's none of your business."


That's just the curmudgeon version of what I said.
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A lever action .30-30 like a Marlin 336 would be a great choice. It's a versatile cartridge that works for game the size of hogs and coyotes up through deer, bear, elk and even moose in the hands of a skilled hunter. Not to mention the recoil is amazingly light. You can pick up a 336 new for less than $600. The main criticism of the .30-30 is that it's a shorter range cartridge, but short is relative since where I live no one would be taking a 200 yard shot at a deer.
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