Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
18 Posts

Warhammer: Diskwars» Forums » Rules

Subject: Questions, and Double Dragon Bomb rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Asen Aleksandrov
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
I just finished an Empire vs High Elves game with 3 heroes on each side; I lost by a complete wipeout on turn 5, with the Elves victorious with A Bolt Thrower, Alarielle, Teclis (with a wound), 2 units of Swordmasters, Maiden Guard and Spearmen surviving. It was brutal. We also played on a 2x3 board, but there were a lot of shooting units and so it wasnt an awfully scrummy game.
Yet, a few questionable situations occured.

-First off, until this is FAQd, I believe Karl Franz can use his focus ability to take an activation token from a unit and place it on himself, thanks to the wording of the 'Activating Disks' and 'Ally' rules. Is that how everyone is playing him?

-I had Luthor charge on top of 2 Elven units; he was Empowered, so he had Frenzy. Then he got pinned by Tyrion, and in the ensuing scrum he was forced to counterattack against him, as that is where the resolution of the scrum began. I took that to mean that Luthor does not get to damage any of the units pinned beneath him, as he had already inflicted damage to Tyrion. Now I am starting to think that he should've been able to hit the Elven units he was on top of, because those were targets in a separate pre-existing engagement. I am not sure thought? Note, that Frenzy is irrelevant to the question.
Either way, Luthor is beastly when empowered- he survived the scrum. At the beginning of the following turn Tyrion was obliterated by a lucky Fulminating Cage roll and Luthor crushed two more units before finally being taken down.

-Finally, something that my opponent did blew my mind. He pulled Rally as his final card in round 3 and used it to remove the activation token off of one of his two Sun Dragons, then moved the other one straight ahead, pinning 2 of my units- Panthers and Swordsmen.

His second Sun Dragon then moved forward and fired upon the first dragon!
Even though his execution wasn't perfect (he only engaged 2 units, one of whom Empowered, and his Dragon was damaged), he had obviously come up with this in advance, and it is beautiful.

It seems like a valid strat to me: a Sun Dragon could use its immense size and fast movement to engage 3+ units to maximize damage. I can't even call it a risky strategy, because if you roll high enough to wound your Dragon (which should ideally be Empowered), that means you will incinerate everything around it as well, which is ideal. If you roll 3-4 (or 5 with an Empowered token), you can kill a ton of stuff around the Dragon while it survives without even taking a wound. Since this is used at the very end of the round, unless one of the units engaged with the Sun Dragon survives the blast, it will heal and you could repeat the process in the following round.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris D
Italy
Muggiò
MB
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You shouldn't be able to move the activation token on Karl Franz himself since in order to use the ability, you already have activated him, and his ability says "unpinned, unactivated".
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Verro Diabolico
Italy
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
peterpotamus wrote:

It seems like a valid strat to me: a Sun Dragon could use its immense size and fast movement to engage 3+ units to maximize damage. I can't even call it a risky strategy, because if you roll high enough to wound your Dragon (which should ideally be Empowered), that means you will incinerate everything around it as well, which is ideal. If you roll 3-4 (or 5 with an Empowered token), you can kill a ton of stuff around the Dragon while it survives without even taking a wound. Since this is used at the very end of the round, unless one of the units engaged with the Sun Dragon survives the blast, it will heal and you could repeat the process in the following round.

You could also shield a Dragon and have it use the breath against itself when pinning a lot of enemy. If you are lucky then it could have no damage at all. In a mixed order army you could use Karl Frantz ability on him in order to repeat the trick another time.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Filippo Donnini
Italy
flag msg tools
peterpotamus wrote:
I just finished an Empire vs High Elves game with 3 heroes on each side; I lost by a complete wipeout on turn 5, with the Elves victorious with A Bolt Thrower, Alarielle, Teclis (with a wound), 2 units of Swordmasters, Maiden Guard and Spearmen surviving. It was brutal. We also played on a 2x3 board, but there were a lot of shooting units and so it wasnt an awfully scrummy game.
Yet, a few questionable situations occured.

-First off, until this is FAQd, I believe Karl Franz can use his focus ability to take an activation token from a unit and place it on himself, thanks to the wording of the 'Activating Disks' and 'Ally' rules. Is that how everyone is playing him?

-I had Luthor charge on top of 2 Elven units; he was Empowered, so he had Frenzy. Then he got pinned by Tyrion, and in the ensuing scrum he was forced to counterattack against him, as that is where the resolution of the scrum began. I took that to mean that Luthor does not get to damage any of the units pinned beneath him, as he had already inflicted damage to Tyrion. Now I am starting to think that he should've been able to hit the Elven units he was on top of, because those were targets in a separate pre-existing engagement. I am not sure thought? Note, that Frenzy is irrelevant to the question.
Either way, Luthor is beastly when empowered- he survived the scrum. At the beginning of the following turn Tyrion was obliterated by a lucky Fulminating Cage roll and Luthor crushed two more units before finally being taken down.

-Finally, something that my opponent did blew my mind. He pulled Rally as his final card in round 3 and used it to remove the activation token off of one of his two Sun Dragons, then moved the other one straight ahead, pinning 2 of my units- Panthers and Swordsmen.

His second Sun Dragon then moved forward and fired upon the first dragon!
Even though his execution wasn't perfect (he only engaged 2 units, one of whom Empowered, and his Dragon was damaged), he had obviously come up with this in advance, and it is beautiful.

It seems like a valid strat to me: a Sun Dragon could use its immense size and fast movement to engage 3+ units to maximize damage. I can't even call it a risky strategy, because if you roll high enough to wound your Dragon (which should ideally be Empowered), that means you will incinerate everything around it as well, which is ideal. If you roll 3-4 (or 5 with an Empowered token), you can kill a ton of stuff around the Dragon while it survives without even taking a wound. Since this is used at the very end of the round, unless one of the units engaged with the Sun Dragon survives the blast, it will heal and you could repeat the process in the following round.


I think you'll have to play this game again, as you screwed up some rules (don't worry, we have all done that before)

1- Karl Franz - he can not move the activation tokens on himself, as you should first place an activation token on him (in order to use his focus ability) then resolve the ability itself.
You thus not gain any activation, it "simply" lets you activate up to 2 units twice but he is then forced to not take any action.

2- Luthor should have killed the elves he was pinning: he was involved in 2 separate engagements, one was him vs Tyrion, the other one was him vs the 2 units.
One unit can only damage once with counterattack and once with attack per turn -> he should have done his counterattack damage on Tyrion and his attack damage on the other 2 units.
Frenzy lets you damage each and every enemy unit he is pinning instead of choosing one.
The only way for the elves to stop him from killing the units he was pinning was to completely destroy him before he had the chance to do so (by making him suffer 1 wound in the "activation" phase via magic, ranged attacks, impact damage or Tyrion's ability, then finishing him off with Tyrion's and some other unit's attack).
I should refer you to the Sniper Troll blog, which features a very nice article on pinning and resolving scrums like that.

3- The Sun Dragon Bomb is a valid strategy, but your opponent could just have done it with the 1st dragon, since it has the mobile keyword: I previously used this tactic by first casting a Shield of Saphery on the dragon, then moving him on top of 4 enemy units (with flying he didn't have to stop when he reached the first one and firing on himself (yes, you can do so since an unit is always considered in range of itself).
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Asen Aleksandrov
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
No_Frets wrote:
You shouldn't be able to move the activation token on Karl Franz himself since in order to use the ability, you already have activated him, and his ability says "unpinned, unactivated".

According to 'Activating Disks', a disk is activated if it has an activation token, and a disk does not get an activation token until after it takes an action. I've sent an email to FF to ask if this is correct or not, with the entire example included.

Verro Diabolico wrote:
You could also shield a Dragon and have it use the breath against itself when pinning a lot of enemy. If you are lucky then it could have no damage at all. In a mixed order army you could use Karl Frantz ability on him in order to repeat the trick another time.

Damn, I didn't even think of that!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Asen Aleksandrov
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
Donnola wrote:
2- Luthor should have killed the elves he was pinning: he was involved in 2 separate engagements, one was him vs Tyrion, the other one was him vs the 2 units.
One unit can only damage once with counterattack and once with attack per turn -> he should have done his counterattack damage on Tyrion and his attack damage on the other 2 units.

Thanks man, I messed that up.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Verro Diabolico
Italy
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
peterpotamus wrote:

According to 'Activating Disks', a disk is activated if it has an activation token, and a disk not get an activation token until after it takes an action. I've sent an email to FF to ask if this is correct or not, with the entire example included.

You are right:
When a player activates a disk, the disk must take one of the following
actions:
• Move.
• Resolve a focus ability.
• Make a ranged attack.
• Pass.
After a disk takes an action, the player places an activation token on it, indicating that the disk has been activated.


Honestly I think it is a bug and they will solve it in a FAQ. Maybe they could solve teh Dragon (or any ranged unit firing directly itself) as well...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Asen Aleksandrov
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
Verro Diabolico wrote:
Honestly I think it is a bug and they will solve it in a FAQ. Maybe they could solve teh Dragon (or any ranged unit firing directly itself) as well...


I also think it's a bug (and I used it 4 times in that game lol). We should find out within a couple of days max. If it's invalid, Alarielle, Franz and a host of other units will become marginally less strong, and the Single Dragon Bomb will be a Double Dragon Bomb but not any less awesome.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Verro Diabolico
Italy
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
peterpotamus wrote:
the Single Dragon Bomb will be a Double Dragon Bomb but not any less awesome.

Yes but you could play it only in a 3 regiments game (1 regiment with Franz, 1 regiment with a dragon and the last with another one). Then it will be less effective, since it could cover a smaller area. With just one Dragon you can pin some enemis, breath fire and depending on the results (home many units you kill) you can move again (thanks to Frantz) move 4 flip to engage another high number of units and breath again.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris D
Italy
Muggiò
MB
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, let's wait for an official response, but it seems to me that is not the intent of the ability and that your interpretation is slightly forced, but I'm curious. Right now I wouldn't play like it.

Also, if that's the case, what do you do, you put a second activation token on Karl at the end of his action?

Hadn't the whole "ranged unit shooting on itself" already been officially answered?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Filippo Donnini
Italy
flag msg tools
The point of the Dragon Bomb is that it's not a ranged attack, it's a focus ability that reads Focus: Deal d6 [phys]damage to target disk within medium range, and all disks that are engaged with the targe.

Since an unit is always considered in range of itself, the target of the dragon can be the dragon itself.

Same thing would go for Alarielle's ability (she can remove a wound on herself) and Volkmar's (he can empower himself).


Still waiting on an official response on Karl, but i think it will be ruled as we previously stated, so that he can't move an activation token on himself as he would end up having 2 tokens at the end of his activation.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Giovanni Cornara
Italy
Varese
flag msg tools
https://snipertroll.wordpress.com - https://shiftingmists.wordpress.com
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Verro Diabolico wrote:
peterpotamus wrote:

According to 'Activating Disks', a disk is activated if it has an activation token, and a disk not get an activation token until after it takes an action. I've sent an email to FF to ask if this is correct or not, with the entire example included.

You are right:
When a player activates a disk, the disk must take one of the following
actions:
• Move.
• Resolve a focus ability.
• Make a ranged attack.
• Pass.
After a disk takes an action, the player places an activation token on it, indicating that the disk has been activated.


Honestly I think it is a bug and they will solve it in a FAQ. Maybe they could solve teh Dragon (or any ranged unit firing directly itself) as well...


I'm interested in learning what FFG has to say about it.
I believe they will specify that Karl Franz may not move an activation token from another unit onto himself, as it will effectively grant you a bonus activation.

Regarding the Dragon, I believe it works right in the intended way: I know it is weird to think "the dragon spits fire onto itself, units near it are damaged", but the current formulation of the rules works better than "Deal d6 physical damage to all disks engaged with target disks within medium range. The target disks also takes the same amount of damage" which probably better conveys the idea of the dragon firing at a group of units clustered together (or around itself for what matters).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris D
Italy
Muggiò
MB
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Donnola wrote:
The point of the Dragon Bomb is that it's not a ranged attack, it's a focus ability that states Focus: Deal d6 [phys]damage to target disk within medium range, and all disks that are engaged with the targe.


Of course, you are right, I misread a Verro's reply... note to self: think before posting on Monday mornings... shake

Anyway, for what is worth, I don't think the two problems are comparable, I have no problem with the Sun Dragon targeting itself (though I see how it might seem weird concept-wise), while if it turns out that Karl Franz do work that way, I will be suprised...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Giovanni Cornara
Italy
Varese
flag msg tools
https://snipertroll.wordpress.com - https://shiftingmists.wordpress.com
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
No_Frets wrote:
Donnola wrote:
The point of the Dragon Bomb is that it's not a ranged attack, it's a focus ability that states Focus: Deal d6 [phys]damage to target disk within medium range, and all disks that are engaged with the targe.


Of course, you are right, I misread a Verro's reply... note to self: think before posting on Monday mornings... shake

Anyway, for what is worth, I don't think the two problems are comparable, I have no problem with the Sun Dragon targeting itself (though I see how it might seem weird concept-wise), while if it turns out that Karl Franz do work that way, I will be suprised...


By the letter of the rules you theoretically can, as it says "Move up to 2 Activation Tokens from allies within long range to other unpinned, unactivated allies within long range."

When he uses this ability, Karl Franz is not activated (as you place an activation token on him after the focus ability is resolved, as peterpotamus pointed out), so he should be eligible for receiving one of the activation token you move from another ally.

As I said before, this is a way to effectively gain an extra activation for free, which I don't think is the intended way this ability works. Let's hope for a FAQ that rules this option out:
Being able to move around activation tokens is already a strong ability if played well, IMHO.

For what (little) is worth, unless proven wrong from an official ansewer/FAQ by FFG, I will continue to play Karl Franz as I always did, not allowing himself to be the recipient for an Activation Token.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Asen Aleksandrov
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
I got a response. Units can freely target themselves, but the Karl Franz trick specifically doesn't work. Despite the wording of the rule, they meant for units to become 'activated' as soon as you declare you're taking an action with them.

Quote:

Asen,

Thanks for the questions. You are correct that a disk can target itself. Karl Franz cannot use his ability to move an activation token to himself because he is activated. Whenever you choose a disk to activate, that disk is activated even though the token has not yet been placed on it. Hope that helps,

--
Lukas Litzsinger
Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
fightcitymayor
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
"This is a really weird game, and you’ll find that most people will not want to play this."
Avatar
mb

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Alaska
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
peterpotamus wrote:
I got a response. Units can freely target themselves, but the the Karl Franz trick specifically doesn't work. Despite the wording of the rule, they meant for units to become 'activated' as soon as you declare you're taking an action with them.

Quote:

Asen,

Thanks for the questions. You are correct that a disk can target itself. Karl Franz cannot use his ability to move an activation token to himself because he is activated. Whenever you choose a disk to activate, that disk is activated even though the token has not yet been placed on it. Hope that helps,

--
Lukas Litzsinger
Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games


That actually makes perfect sense and is how I was playing him, but I had not thought of the 'token placed at end' loophole. But the way Lukas explains it makes prefects sense, you activate the disk, it is activated, you take the action, token just not placed until end. Course maybe the rules could have stated you place a token as you activate and there would have been no room for a loophole.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Giovanni Cornara
Italy
Varese
flag msg tools
https://snipertroll.wordpress.com - https://shiftingmists.wordpress.com
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I thought again at this issue before seeing here that Lukas had answered; After re-checking the rules I came to this conclusion that I posted on my blog (a bit of rule lawyering, sorry):

Quote:
Rules say

“When it is a player’s turn to resolve his chosen command card, he must activate a number of his disks equal to the command card’s activation value.” (Page 7)
“When activating disks, a player can activate any of his disks that are not already activated or pinned. A disk with an activation token on it is activated.
When a player activates a disk, the disk must take one of the following actions:
• Move.
• Resolve a focus ability.
• Make a ranged attack.
• Pass.
After a disk takes an action, the player places an activation token on it, indicating that the disk has been activated.” (Page 8)

So the sequence of actions you have to do in order to use Karl Franz’s ability should be:

1. You select Karl Franz as the disk you want to be activated;
2. You activate Karl Franz -> Karl Franz becomes ACTIVATED
3. You choose which action you want KF to take (i.e. his Focus Abiltiy);
4. You resolve the chosen action;
5. You place an activation token on Karl Franz to mark he has been activated;

When you resolve his focus ability, Karl Franz has already been activated (as you need to activate a disk in order to have him take an action), so he is not eligible for taking an Activation Token from another disk.


Glad to see the spirit of the rules winning again!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.