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Subject: Thoughts about final turn, amount of turns, and concordia card... rss

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UA Darth
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I have always been a big fan of letting everyone have an equal amount of turns. I house rule games like Domininon to allow this. Otherwise, whoever was lucky enough to get randomly chosen to go first could potentially have more turns than everyone else.

Let's say there are players A, B, and C.

B ends the game and takes the concordia card. Player C got screwed. A will be able to take one extra turn than C overall. B was compensated with 7 vp for not getting that last turn.

A solution I could think of is that the only players that get a final turn would be the ones after the game ending turn, but not going back to the starting player of the game.

Your thoughts?
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Dave Eisen
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shadow9d9 wrote:
I have always been a big fan of letting everyone have an equal amount of turns. I house rule games like Domininon to allow this. Otherwise, whoever was lucky enough to get randomly chosen to go first could potentially have more turns than everyone else.

Let's say there are players A, B, and C.

B ends the game and takes the concordia card. Player C got screwed. A will be able to take one extra turn than C overall. B was compensated with 7 vp for not getting that last turn.

A solution I could think of is that the only players that get a final turn would be the ones after the game ending turn, but not going back to the starting player of the game.

Your thoughts?


Dominion has problems because it's just plain better to go first. That's not obviously true in Concordia.

Later players start with more money. They also have options the start player does not get like using a Diplomat card turn one to copy an Architect played. They also will get the Prefectus Magnus card sooner than the start player will.

Play a few times before deciding that there is a start player advantage.

I note that your proposed variant removes the decision for a player as to whether or not to trigger game end. If a player will not get another turn if a player after him or her triggers game end, then the answer is to *always* trigger game end if you can and it's at all possible for another player to do so.
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Jon Ben
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Before you ask for a solution you have to demonstrate that there's a problem. Things like turn order advantage are examined during play testing. Unless you have a compelling data set that shows a problem I'll believe what Mac handed us
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UA Darth
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dkeisen wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
I have always been a big fan of letting everyone have an equal amount of turns. I house rule games like Domininon to allow this. Otherwise, whoever was lucky enough to get randomly chosen to go first could potentially have more turns than everyone else.

Let's say there are players A, B, and C.

B ends the game and takes the concordia card. Player C got screwed. A will be able to take one extra turn than C overall. B was compensated with 7 vp for not getting that last turn.

A solution I could think of is that the only players that get a final turn would be the ones after the game ending turn, but not going back to the starting player of the game.

Your thoughts?


Dominion has problems because it's just plain better to go first. That's not obviously true in Concordia.

Later players start with more money. They also have options the start player does not get like using a Diplomat card turn one to copy an Architect played. They also will get the Prefectus Magnus card sooner than the start player will.

Play a few times before deciding that there is a start player advantage.

I note that your proposed variant removes the decision for a player as to whether or not to trigger game end. If a player will not get another turn if a player after him or her triggers game end, then the answer is to *always* trigger game end if you can and it's at all possible for another player to do so.


I'm not sure that is necessarily true. If you think you will get more points the next round than the other players, it would not necessarily make sense to end the game immediately.
 
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UA Darth
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JonBen wrote:
Before you ask for a solution you have to demonstrate that there's a problem. Things like turn order advantage are examined during play testing. Unless you have a compelling data set that shows a problem I'll believe what Mac handed us :)


I demonstrated the problem by example. I do not need data to point out the obvious. One play of Dominion was enough to realize that whoever went first had the ability to end the game without giving other players an equal amount of rounds. To this day, even with all of the Dominion expansions, I do not believe that it has been addressed. Correct me if I am wrong.
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Curt Carpenter
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shadow9d9 wrote:
One play of Dominion was enough to realize that whoever went first had the ability to end the game without giving other players an equal amount of rounds. To this day, even with all of the Dominion expansions, I do not believe that it has been addressed.

I agree. But I do think it's different in Concordia for the reasons Dave mentioned. If you guaranteed everyone had equal turns, then I would feel that the player in last has an advantage. He starts with the most money, and the prefectus magnus card (guaranteed no other player uses it more than him).
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UA Darth
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curtc wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
One play of Dominion was enough to realize that whoever went first had the ability to end the game without giving other players an equal amount of rounds. To this day, even with all of the Dominion expansions, I do not believe that it has been addressed.

I agree. But I do think it's different in Concordia for the reasons Dave mentioned. If you guaranteed everyone had equal turns, then I would feel that the player in last has an advantage. He starts with the most money, and the prefectus magnus card (guaranteed no other player uses it more than him).


Right, although I'm not sure how much 1 or 2 coins extra would help much, considering they do get last pick of where to go at the start. If anything, I'd say, drop the 7 points down to 3 or 4 to try to balance it. Honestly, I'd be content to remove the card. Games tend to regulate themselves. If someone else is gathering more points than you in later turns, you shouldn't need a card with bonuses to convince you to end the game quickly!
 
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Georg D.
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shadow9d9 wrote:
Right, although I'm not sure how much 1 or 2 coins extra would help much, considering they do get last pick of where to go at the start.

1 coin more can allow me to
- build a cloth town when my predecessor only can build a wine-town
- build a brick town already occupied and still have the same money left as other players.

So that 1 coin usually does a good job in equalling out the starting position.
In addition I know what other players do and can adapt. I can use my diplomat in turn 1. I get the praefectus magnus more early.
I will not claim that there is no advantage for the startplayer. (I just don't know it.) But before I believe you that there is a disadvantage I need some more than you little example. Yes the last player propably has 1 turn less. But due to the facts I (and others) mentioned above his turns propably are more efficient.
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M. Shanmugasundaram
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The game does not allow players perfect knowledge of the score at all times. At the same time, it maximizes your awareness of scoring potential.

It doesn't matter if you're the first player or the last. The Concordia card is target of competition, just as any other card -- they ALL give a scoring benefit. It's basically an obvious quasi-push-your-luck mechanic injected into a game that allows you to otherwise plan out your agenda with some confidence.

The assertion that it, beyond any other card, imbalances the game is ridiculous. By that stage in the game, it can provide [mumble mumble]* of the points any other optimized play would, assuming you have a chance at actually executing a scoring play.

If you can't guarantee that you will make more than 7 points on your turn when the Concordia card is visible, you should be vying for that card. If you can only make 7 points, you should probably take card, since it will deny the card to your opponents, or possibly stop them from scoring more points than you with an alternative action.

It's not like Player C didn't see it coming. Everyone knows exactly when Concordia is coming out, and who potentially has the resources to purchase it.

*sorry, my math brain is not working.
 
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UA Darth
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rumble wrote:
The game does not allow players perfect knowledge of the score at all times. At the same time, it maximizes your awareness of scoring potential.

It doesn't matter if you're the first player or the last. The Concordia card is target of competition, just as any other card -- they ALL give a scoring benefit. It's basically an obvious quasi-push-your-luck mechanic injected into a game that allows you to otherwise plan out your agenda with some confidence.

The assertion that it, beyond any other card, imbalances the game is ridiculous. By that stage in the game, it should only provide about 50-70% of the points any other play would, assuming you have a chance at actually executing a scoring play.

If you can't guarantee that you will make more than 7 points on your turn when the Concordia card is visible, you should be vying for that card. If you can only make 7 points, you should probably take card, since it will deny the card to your opponents, or possibly stop them from scoring more points than you with an alternative action.

It's not like Player C didn't see it coming. Everyone knows exactly when Concordia is coming out, and who potentially has the resources to purchase it.


I think you misunderstand. It is not about the card. It is about the extra turn that the first player(and maybe more) will have over other players.
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M. Shanmugasundaram
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I do understand. I'm saying that effectiveness in the game isn't about the number of turns you have, but rather about how you compete for cards and points whenever you have the chance.

You have to manage the fact that you may have a turn ganked by whoever takes the Concordia card.

BTW, I adjusted my post to reflect the fact that math was hideously wonked.
 
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UA Darth
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rumble wrote:
I do understand. I'm saying that effectiveness in the game isn't about the number of turns you have, but rather about how you compete for cards and points whenever you have the chance.

You have to manage the fact that you may have a turn ganked by whoever takes the Concordia card.

BTW, I adjusted my post to reflect the fact that math was hideously wonked.


Equal skill would mean that the person that had an extra turn will have a large advantage...

The first player will NEVER have a turn "ganked." That is the point...
 
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Jon Ben
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shadow9d9 wrote:
rumble wrote:
I do understand. I'm saying that effectiveness in the game isn't about the number of turns you have, but rather about how you compete for cards and points whenever you have the chance.

You have to manage the fact that you may have a turn ganked by whoever takes the Concordia card.

BTW, I adjusted my post to reflect the fact that math was hideously wonked.


Equal skill would mean that the person that had an extra turn will have a large advantage...

The first player will NEVER have a turn "ganked." That is the point...


If only they thought about this before release and added benefits to players further along in turn order. Now that you have uncovered this clearly unbalanced flaw.... /sarcasam

Seriously though, you aren't convincing anyone. You have to show that people earlier in turn order actually win more than would be expected. If that isn't true then there is no problem.
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UA Darth
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JonBen wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
rumble wrote:
I do understand. I'm saying that effectiveness in the game isn't about the number of turns you have, but rather about how you compete for cards and points whenever you have the chance.

You have to manage the fact that you may have a turn ganked by whoever takes the Concordia card.

BTW, I adjusted my post to reflect the fact that math was hideously wonked.


Equal skill would mean that the person that had an extra turn will have a large advantage...

The first player will NEVER have a turn "ganked." That is the point...


If only they thought about this before release and added benefits to players further along in turn order. Now that you have uncovered this clearly unbalanced flaw.... /sarcasam

Seriously though, you aren't convincing anyone. You have to show that people earlier in turn order actually win more than would be expected. If that isn't true then there is no problem.


No, I don't need to show that at all. All I have to show is that one player, and some others will get an extra turn. That, in and of itself, makes it unbalanced.
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M. Shanmugasundaram
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Um, nope. You have to show that the extra turn actually matters -- and more importantly, that the FIRST turn matters more than any other.

A turn is not intrinsically a significant advantage.

There are positional, timing, and resource management considerations that come into play.
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Georg D.
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shadow9d9 wrote:
No, I don't need to show that at all. All I have to show is that one player, and some others will get an extra turn. That, in and of itself, makes it unbalanced.


Again: An extra turn does not nescessary result in more points. It is also about how efficient you can use your turns.
The last player
- can build in towns with higher productionvalue on his first turn (due to more mone at start of game)
- has earlier access to the praefectus magnus card so he gets a 'free' ressource more early in the game. (and propably of higher value due to point one)

So the last player will have more efficient moves during the first turns. As a result he has a better economy and more efficient turns all over the game.
In addition he propably gets the praefectus magnus one time more than the others.

I would say if all players have the same number of turns the last player has a significant advantage.
 
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Jon Ben
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shadow9d9 wrote:
JonBen wrote:
You have to show that people earlier in turn order actually win more than would be expected. If that isn't true then there is no problem.


No, I don't need to show that at all. All I have to show is that one player, and some others will get an extra turn. That, in and of itself, makes it unbalanced.


Of course you have to show that. How can the there be an balance issue if your chances of winning don't change depending on turn order!
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rumble wrote:
Um, nope. You have to show that the extra turn actually matters -- and more importantly, that the FIRST turn matters more than any other.

A turn is not intrinsically a significant advantage.

There are positional, timing, and resource management considerations that come into play.


Since you can score victory points on every turn, every turn matters. Are you serious? I mean, come on!
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UA Darth
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JonBen wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
JonBen wrote:
You have to show that people earlier in turn order actually win more than would be expected. If that isn't true then there is no problem.


No, I don't need to show that at all. All I have to show is that one player, and some others will get an extra turn. That, in and of itself, makes it unbalanced.


Of course you have to show that. How can the there be an balance issue if your chances of winning don't change depending on turn order!


Umm, because having an extra turn can mean a hell of a lot. Why would you EVER want a game where some people will have more turns than others? It can ONLY be looked at as a negative.
 
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Georg D.
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shadow9d9 wrote:
Why would you EVER want a game where some people will have more turns than others? It can ONLY be looked at as a negative.


Because those with one turn less have other advantages?

You can also ask:

Why would you EVER want a game where some people will have abilities to score others don't have? It can ONLY be looked at as a negative.

On first thought this sounds crazy unbalanced. But games like Eclipse and Terra Mystica show that this can function quite well.

So on first thought it sounds bad to have one turn less. But after a second thought it doesn't seem to be that bad.
I would appreciate it if you would comment my conclusion that the game would be unbalanced in favor of the last player if all had the same number of turns.
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Dana Dawson
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shadow9d9 wrote:
I have always been a big fan of letting everyone have an equal amount of turns. I house rule games like Domininon to allow this. Otherwise, whoever was lucky enough to get randomly chosen to go first could potentially have more turns than everyone else.

Let's say there are players A, B, and C.

B ends the game and takes the concordia card. Player C got screwed. A will be able to take one extra turn than C overall. B was compensated with 7 vp for not getting that last turn.

A solution I could think of is that the only players that get a final turn would be the ones after the game ending turn, but not going back to the starting player of the game.

Your thoughts?


Whining after one play???!!! Oh, c'mon.

I have 30+ games under my belt.
I'm a statistics beast (I have records of every single game our group play).
According to my records, on an average 4p game, the first player has won 1/4 of the times.
I see NO really advantage in being First player but having free roads and provinces and/or free access for the cards via Senator
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M. Shanmugasundaram
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shadow9d9 wrote:
rumble wrote:
Um, nope. You have to show that the extra turn actually matters -- and more importantly, that the FIRST turn matters more than any other.

A turn is not intrinsically a significant advantage.

There are positional, timing, and resource management considerations that come into play.


Since you can score victory points on every turn, every turn matters. Are you serious? I mean, come on!


Sure, you're going to score on every turn. But scoring well depends on chained moves.

So let's conduct an (admittedly absurd) thought experiment.

If the turn equality matters, and it matters that much, I suggest that player A can never lose if you take out the Concordia card.

---
Assume all players play perfectly (whatever that means). On turn 1, Player A will score X points. The best that subsequent perfect players can achieve is to catch up (tie). Turn after turn, until the end of the game.
---

Obviously that's not true. There are far too many variables and obstacles to "perfect" play. Resource placement, card reveal order, available building sites, etc.

Folks discussing Trajan had this same concern about imbalance based on number of turns/actions. I don't buy it.

How could you possibly play a game like Glen More, or Olympus, or Thebes, where managing the quantity, quality, and timing of your turns is a central aspect of the game?

The existence of the Concordia card forces a tactical consideration -- do you feel like you have enough points to win, and therefore take the card, or do you need to try to get more points, and hope no one takes the card and ends the game before you can perform a collect (resources/cards) and score combo?

Perhaps even more importantly, you cannot perfectly predict which player will have first option to purchase the Concordia card. You can only influence it by purchasing already visible cards. And if you put it off too long, someone can end the game by placing all their city markers.

If you don't like that aspect of the game, that's cool. But claiming the game is imbalanced because it results in turn inequality -- it simply doesn't make sense.

It's late. I'm rambling.

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Jonathan Degann
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I agree 100% with those who argue that there is no obvious advantage in going first. Indeed, I have a tactic that I want to try out next time which would benefit me if I went 3rd or later.

However, rather than doing violence to the game end, you can always balance out by bidding points for the right to go earlier in the turn. Or you can give another buck or two to players late in turn order. If you do, please invite me to play because I'd happily take last in turn order!
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One minor side point: the advantage/disadvantage to going earlier or later in the turn order can be affected by the setup. In theory some sort of bidding system is probably most fair, but unless you have large sums of money riding on the game, I'm not sure it's worth the extra time. Players also have the opportunity to affect each other in-game, and thus any perceived injustices regarding turn order can be redressed in-game.
 
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UA Darth
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blackholexan wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
I have always been a big fan of letting everyone have an equal amount of turns. I house rule games like Domininon to allow this. Otherwise, whoever was lucky enough to get randomly chosen to go first could potentially have more turns than everyone else.

Let's say there are players A, B, and C.

B ends the game and takes the concordia card. Player C got screwed. A will be able to take one extra turn than C overall. B was compensated with 7 vp for not getting that last turn.

A solution I could think of is that the only players that get a final turn would be the ones after the game ending turn, but not going back to the starting player of the game.

Your thoughts?


Whining after one play???!!! Oh, c'mon.

I have 30+ games under my belt.
I'm a statistics beast (I have records of every single game our group play).
According to my records, on an average 4p game, the first player has won 1/4 of the times.
I see NO really advantage in being First player but having free roads and provinces and/or free access for the cards via Senator


It matters if the first player is generally a more skilled player or not. Take your 30 games. Were weak players generally the ones that went first?

In the end, all that matters, is that the earlier turn order players can get a free extra turn, which certainly can be a positive and definitely would never be a negative!
 
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