Recommend
9 
 Thumb up
 Hide
45 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Android: Netrunner» Forums » Strategy

Subject: The Corpbusting power of Donut Taganes rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Nephtys Nephtys
msg tools


This guy was just spoiled, and I think he's going to be pretty powerful when utilized correctly. There's a bit of mixed feelings about him floating around, but I think that's pretty undeserved. I will explain why.

First, his strengths: Adding +1 to the cost of EVERY event the corp plays.

This is incredible. It just basically performed one to two account siphons off the corp before the game even began. Most of my corp decks run 9-15 Operations, with ~9 of them being Econ focused. Just think of what reducing their efficiency by 1 credit does?

Restructure: Costs 11, nets 4 credits. Ouch!
Hedge Fund: costs 6, nets 3 credits. JEEZ.
Beanstalk: Costs 1, nets 2 credits. Not worth the deck slot!
GLC: Costs 3, nets 0 credits and draws a card. DEAD CARD.
Subliminal: Costs 1, nets 1. DEAD CARD.
Sweeps Week: Costs 2, nets 0-3 Credits. EH!
BLC: Costs 4, a click, Nets 1 credit and draws 2 cards! Net gain: 1 cred/card. MEDIOCRE!

Basically, it guts the hell out of any Corp Econ Operation by a substantial amount. It turns half of them from 'worth using for a gain' to either dead or near dead card slots.

Likewise, adding 1 to non-Econ Operations is huge too.
Shipment from SanSan: 2 clicks, 1 credit to... add 2 counters. Bleh! Can't fast advance with it anymore off a SanSan when broke!
Scorched Earths costing 4 makes multi-scorch kills so much harder.
Every Accelerated Diagnostics Combo just increased in cost by 4 to 5 credits.

Seriously, this is an incredible power. It's a hard counter to the increasingly powerful operations economies of corps, which has caused (more vulnerable) asset economies to become far rarer

"He's got downsides. He costs 2 Influence and increases your event cost!
Sure. It sure does have downsides. The 2 influence will have to be built around, true. But nowadays, Runners have more in-faction tools for this. It competes with other good cards, but I think the effect is worth it.

Increasing your own event cost I think is trivial. Runners don't care as badly about them, if you build a non-Event Economy and limit events to extremely specific, directed effects. Does it matter for example, if Account Siphon costs 0 or 1? either way, a landed AS is utterly devastating. Same with Indexing, or Stimhack.

Runners meanwhile get away with awesome non-Event economy. Kati Jones, Pawnshop Resources, Liberated, Armitage, Magnum Opus are all extremely powerful econ.

Don't forget the other indirect cost savings to the Runner. For every ICE the Corp does not rez, that's credits the Runner isn't spending to bust through.

So while the corp is suddenly cutting down their economy by about 25 percent (assuming the Runner puts him out early), a runner deck designed around it is barely affected at all.

---

Long story short: I think Donut Taganes will become a defining card of our future meta, post Honor and Profit.
22 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Redston
Israel
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nephtys wrote:
Long story short: I think Donut Taganes will become a defining card of our future meta,

People said the same about The Source when it was spoiled...
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Rockwell
United States
Lynnwood
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I feel that he was overnerfed by the 2 influence cost and event cost increase. We'll see. He is definitely great against Subliminal Messaging, but against decks without it, will the corp get enough operations during the game to justfiy this?

If he is getting played, then my corp decks are just going to be -3 Subliminal +3 Melange, and If the runner wants to spend $3 putting htis out and then weaken the few events they do play in that deck, thats fine with me.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nephtys Nephtys
msg tools
The Source goes away. Donut does not. You install him on turn 1, and his hit to you can be mitigated by your deck design.

He's pretty mean to things that aren't just Subliminals though.
Hedge Fund gets a 25 percent hit, plus a higher activation cost.
BLC gets a 33 percent hit
GLC gets a 50 percent hit to it's efficiency
Anon Tip gets a 50 percent hit
Beanstalk gets a 50 percent hit.
Subliminal gets a 100 percent hit.

Melange is good, yes. But at least Melange has counter-plays to keep a corp down, while Anon + Beanstalk + Hedge doesn't as much.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tables
United Kingdom
Coventry
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Your calculations are a little out in a few places. GLC will cost 2c, not 3c when Donut is around. It still gives 1c and a card, so it's not completely worthless (although is seriously nerfed).

What I imagine this would do if it gets regularly played is end up with a switch towards more asset based economy. It's not like the corp is terrible there, although they're probably weaker than the runner.

I could see Donut working with some kind of Whizzard economy denial strategy (or just alongside Scrubbers, I suppose). Donut taxes all your operations, Whizzard's ID makes your asset economy efficient to trash. Where it would go from there I dunno, but hey it's an idea.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Webster
United Kingdom
Leeds
Yorkshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sea, Scorch, Scorch is +3 Credits. Not insignificant.

Silly Accelerated Diagnostics/Shutdown combos are +at least 4 credits, possibly many more to the point they become unplayable.

A very strong effect no doubt, but replacing the standard dominating event suite in a crim deck with this seems unlikely/wacky.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yi Sheng Siow
msg tools
donut will probably be terrible except in the very rare specific deck designed for him.

edit: actually i take that back. with connections playing a bigger part and probably more tag punishment coming in the future, donut probably has a good future as a 1-of in many decks, and maybe even a 2-of in some decks. (but that's in the future, hinging on tagme being worse, not the current card pool)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken Dilloo
United States
Bothell
Washington
flag msg tools
Everything is relative to perception, and your perception is limited.
badge
The Ginger Ninja
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Whizzard. Whizzard will love this.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Bengtsson
United States
California
flag msg tools
Whizzard with Grimoire, Cache and Aesop's might not need to play Hedge Funds for money. Add Gorman Drip, Daily Casts and Armitage, and you might have an interesting non-event economy to play around Donut Taganes' weakness. Add the Source and you have some nasty denial going on.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean Trundle
msg tools
mb
I'm not prepared to say he's terrible, but he doesn't seem terribly strong in the current card pool. The 2 influence is a pretty big hit; to make him worth including, you either need 3 copies (6 influence) or 1 copy + Hostages. Outside of criminal, those hostages are also two influence each. Running him in criminal seems like a terrible idea in the current card pool, since you're nerfing the best thing about crims (except, arguably, Desperado): their events.

Honestly, even if he was zero influence I think you'd need to build a very specific deck around him, and that deck probably isn't great in the current cardpool. Events are strong by design, owing to their one-time nature. Obviously, they've spoiled him with a bunch of other Connections, so it's possible they foresee some steadier archetype built around resources/hardware that isn't as burst-y as the current event pool. It *could* work -- my Kit deck, for example, makes very little use of events outside of Indexing -- but it feels like it would be much slower to setup.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Bengtsson
United States
California
flag msg tools
Im wondering if Prepaid voicePAD might be worth using to negate Donut's negative rider. Especially if you're doing the contacts-hostage, its not that crazy to add an Inside Man. If there is some juicy hardware in Honor & Profit that might be a solution as well. Im thinking the tempo hit might be considerable though. Might work in a Iain deck, who wants to hang back in the beginning and get set up.

Definitely hoping there are suitable contacts-hardware decks popping up as the card pool increases.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter O
United States
Oakland
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Reina would be a fine runner for Donut. If you're taxing their economy AND ICE you hit em coming and going. And if I had any other connections worth running, I'd might run one or two hostages with Donut instead of three Donuts.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Angell
msg tools
i feel like this is ffgs attempt to reign in transaction econ which has gotten a bit nuts lately but that two influence is a killer.

i think the source and donut should have been 1 inf. if jackson is a 1 influence card those guys are overcosted.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
dan dargenio
United States
Philadelphia
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
You won't find me spending 2 influence on a man named Donut.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Kudzma
United States
Millsboro
Delaware
flag msg tools
designer
People are...
badge
SPOCKED!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I personally want to run him in Reina. I would Donut a turn or two later, then pile on The Source. I still do not think a "tax" deck is completely there in the set yet, but something interesting is certainly developing.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roberta Yang
msg tools
chrespo wrote:
Im wondering if Prepaid voicePAD might be worth using to negate Donut's negative rider. Especially if you're doing the contacts-hostage, its not that crazy to add an Inside Man. If there is some juicy hardware in Honor & Profit that might be a solution as well. Im thinking the tempo hit might be considerable though. Might work in a Iain deck, who wants to hang back in the beginning and get set up.

Definitely hoping there are suitable contacts-hardware decks popping up as the card pool increases.

If you're using enough events to make Prepaid VoicePAD worthwhile, you're using too many events to make Donut worthwhile.
13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rudy Carico
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I can see him being rather potent in certain economy denial decks, particularly in some Anarch builds. In addition, I can see him proving useful against the upcoming Current cards in the Lunar Cycle.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Felix Hathaway
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I'll be spamming him just because he looks like Tuism. How could he be bad?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Thornby
United Kingdom
University of Warwick
West Midlands
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think people are thinking about this slightly incorrectly to be speculating about which runners he works with. He does his job simply by being in the card pool. Provided he sees enough play, the Corps will have to change what they're doing in response.

Pairing Donut with Whizzard isn't exactly correct - Donut forces the Corp to change strategy and Whizzard exploits the new one, but (crucially) that decision is made at a deck building stage - not during the game. So you don't need Donut in a Whizzard deck - Donut has already done his job before the tournament starts because everybody played him last week. Whizzard is here to capitalise on the meta decisions all the Corps made in response. Playing both would be hedging your bets - it would guarantee a result, but it means either your choice of ID or your decision to spend influence were a waste.

The real decision isn't about which runners complement Donut's ability, but more like which runners are least affected by the negatives - i.e. which runners can get away with very few events?

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dirk Tebben
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
mb
Donut creates one of those oddball game-theoretic scenarios where every runner deck would very much like other runner decks to use him, so that corps are nudged away from operation econ, but might not want to spend the influence themselves.

My suspicion is that he'll end up not getting played much in tournaments, because:

a) he's hit-or-miss, very effective against some corp decks but nearly useless against others;
b) he puts restrictions on runner deck design by lowering the value of some of the best runner cards;
c) 2 neutral influence is ouch.

And, of course, if he does become very popular, he'll also become less valuable as corps change their strategies, therefore less popular, and so on...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Sutcliffe
United Kingdom
Manchester
flag msg tools
Avatar
stillnotking wrote:
Donut creates one of those oddball game-theoretic scenarios where every runner deck would very much like other runner decks to use him, so that corps are nudged away from operation econ, but might not want to spend the influence themselves.

My suspicion is that he'll end up not getting played much in tournaments, because:

a) he's hit-or-miss, very effective against some corp decks but nearly useless against others;
b) he puts restrictions on runner deck design by lowering the value of some of the best runner cards;
c) 2 neutral influence is ouch.

And, of course, if he does become very popular, he'll also become less valuable as corps change their strategies, therefore less popular, and so on...


This. I suspect he won't actually see very much play - at 3 cost and a click to play, and a similar impact on runner Events if you're running any, he is likely to set the Runner economy back further than he sets the Corp economy back.

You have to work hard to avoid Donut hurting your own deck, and even then his simple cost means you're unlikely to get out ahead of the Corp in most circumstances.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Keddie
Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
I dunno, I like Donut - and I think, as others have said, putting him in your deck means you're prepared for him - the enemy might not be.

Not all Runners are as Event-driven as the typical Criminal is. I play Anarch almost exclusively, and I tend to have more programs than anything else (though my first attempt at a Caissa deck had a lot more). My old Noise deck had only 8 events, and some of those could be replaced, especially with some of the upcoming toys like Cache - perfect replacement for Easy Mark.

It's interesting as well that people regard Neutral influence as being worse than an out-of-faction card. Just think of it as another card that's not in faction. Yes, that means you can't choose the faction to suit the card, but I don't build my decks that way anyway - you just have to allow for influence expenditure as normal, and treat the card as if it was OOF.

I am sad no-one plays the Source - it would be great if it was cheaper, or less restrictive in terms of self-trashing, but I don't think it's the influence that hurts it as much. Same for ol' Donut here - build your deck not to need Events as much, and the major downside is mitigated. The influence seems pretty justified to me.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Sutcliffe
United Kingdom
Manchester
flag msg tools
Avatar
CommissarFeesh wrote:
I dunno, I like Donut - and I think, as others have said, putting him in your deck means you're prepared for him - the enemy might not be.

Not all Runners are as Event-driven as the typical Criminal is. I play Anarch almost exclusively, and I tend to have more programs than anything else (though my first attempt at a Caissa deck had a lot more). My old Noise deck had only 8 events, and some of those could be replaced, especially with some of the upcoming toys like Cache - perfect replacement for Easy Mark.

It's interesting as well that people regard Neutral influence as being worse than an out-of-faction card. Just think of it as another card that's not in faction. Yes, that means you can't choose the faction to suit the card, but I don't build my decks that way anyway - you just have to allow for influence expenditure as normal, and treat the card as if it was OOF.

I am sad no-one plays the Source - it would be great if it was cheaper, or less restrictive in terms of self-trashing, but I don't think it's the influence that hurts it as much. Same for ol' Donut here - build your deck not to need Events as much, and the major downside is mitigated. The influence seems pretty justified to me.


The downside is only partially mitigated - the downside includes the Click+3 Credits cost of playing him (argue amongst yourself whether he costs a click to draw or not).

So the Runner is at least -4 credits to play Donut. Even assuming they play 0 Events it will take a long time for the Corp to lose 4 credits, if they ever do, and longer still for Donut to put the Runner ahead on economy by enough to justify playing Donut over another economy struggle card.

I think he will have a role, but it's a really niche role and if you make him too central to your strategy you have to be really careful about getting tagged.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Captain Frisk
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
badge
MIND|GAMES
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've had some offline conversations regarding donut, and I'm unimpressed.

It definitely screws over high operation builds (like my new favorite 27 operation weyland), but against a normal deck (lets say HBFA?), its pretty much a dead card. My version runs 8 operations (3x biotic, 2x archived, 3x hedge fund)... and over the course of a normal game, i'll play 5-6? If you want to dedicate deck space, pay $3 and a click and a card right NOW to cost me 5-6 over the course of the game - SOLD - especially given that you've dedicated precious influence for this ability that could have been something that would really hurt me.

Because of the influence cost, this is a deck that you build around (all resources). If the deck ever becomes popular - the corp can easily meta against it.

I think I could see hostage based criminals sprinkling one in as a safety valve against abusive corps, and i'm sure others people will try to build a dedicated denial build around it, but I'm not sure that's the deck you want to bring to a 65 minute tournament.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
badalchemist
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'll definitely slot this into a Resource-oriented Runner deck, if for no other reason than to disrupt Corp rush decks that are heavy on Operations.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.