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Cristian Lazarescu
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Having played and very much loved this game in both the original version and its less inspired German reprint, I decided that some things need to be clarified, as the rules seem to either omit them or take them for granted.

1. In the original version, all ten daimyo cards are shuffled at start, while in the German reprint only the six weakest daimyo are used. We've always used the German rules as it offers a more balanced start, but are there other opinions/rulings on this?

2. If a shogun is assassinated by a ninja, does the "By Imperial Decree" card returns to the middle of the table as an unclaimed card? If yes, can it be immediately claimed by the player who just used the ninja assassin?

3. Ninja stealing possession cards counts as an action. Does placing these cards also count as actions or are they placed for free?

4. You have a full hand (seven cards) and play an elite ninja spy, reducing your hand to six, but stealing two cards which would raise your hand to eight, over the limit. Do the stolen cards still count against your hand limit or do you have to discard a card prior to stealing?

5. The rules state: steal or destroy two possession cards from ANY ONE house. Since I'm not an English speaker, I'd like to know which reading is the correct one:
- you can steal one card from the daimyo and another from the samurai from a single player (this is what we always used until now);
- you must steal both cards EITHER from the daimyo OR from the samurai from a single player;
- you can steal one card from a player and another from another player.

6. Can you upgrade your castle by playing a new one from the hand (not by battle victory)?

7. Can you change your daimyo by playing a new one from the hand (sort of like upgrading a castle)? If not, how can you do this other than by self-assassination or provoking battles?

8. If as a daimyo you dishonor a second samurai that is allied with you, thereby dissolving the alliance:
- do you as a daimyo incur some sort of dishonor and, if yes, how much?
- does the dishonored second samurai incur the 75 honor loss from the dishonor card in addition to again becoming ronin?

9. If a defeated daimyo uses a save face card, does his house still retains all of its cards (except the castle - clear ruling on this one, for a change)?

Sorry for the many questions here, but hopefully someone will be able to clarify all this stuff.
 
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Pedro Pereira
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Killdozer wrote:
1. In the original version, all ten daimyo cards are shuffled at start, while in the German reprint only the six weakest daimyo are used. We've always used the German rules as it offers a more balanced start, but are there other opinions/rulings on this?


Not to my awareness. Overall the German ruling is regarded an improvement for several reasons. One you mentioned, another is that you can't have negative honor points (different to the original), so that players wouldn't be able to always play ninjas just for the sake of annoyance.

There is no other ruling regarding how the Daimyos work,

Killdozer wrote:
2. If a shogun is assassinated by a ninja, does the "By Imperial Decree" card returns to the middle of the table as an unclaimed card? If yes, can it be immediately claimed by the player who just used the ninja assassin?


Once the "By Imperial Decree" has been claimed, it will never return to the centre of the table again. Instead, it is claimed by the player with the highest current honour. If a tie, It think it goes clockwise to the nearest player to the previous Shogunate.

Killdozer wrote:
3. Ninja stealing possession cards counts as an action. Does placing these cards also count as actions or are they placed for free?


When you steal a card, you don't put that card into your hand, instead, you transfer it to either you Daimyo or to your Samurai house.

Killdozer wrote:
4. You have a full hand (seven cards) and play an elite ninja spy, reducing your hand to six, but stealing two cards which would raise your hand to eight, over the limit. Do the stolen cards still count against your hand limit or do you have to discard a card prior to stealing?


As explained above, stolen cards do not go to your hand. Put them into any of your houses in any combination you like.

Killdozer wrote:
5. The rules state: steal or destroy two possession cards from ANY ONE house. Since I'm not an English speaker, I'd like to know which reading is the correct one:
- you can steal one card from the daimyo and another from the samurai from a single player (this is what we always used until now);
- you must steal both cards EITHER from the daimyo OR from the samurai from a single player;
- you can steal one card from a player and another from another player.


If I recall correct, any of the above are correct except for the word "must".

Killdozer wrote:
6. Can you upgrade your castle by playing a new one from the hand (not by battle victory)?


Yes. Discard the one you had and replace it with the new one. basically this represents the whole to houses moving places...

Killdozer wrote:
7. Can you change your daimyo by playing a new one from the hand (sort of like upgrading a castle)? If not, how can you do this other than by self-assassination or provoking battles?


You cannot. You can commit seppuku when another player plays the shame card on you, other players may attempt an assassination against your Daimyo and succeed and that's it. There is no other way for you to swap Daimyos, which is why being second Samurai can be so dangerous...

Killdozer wrote:
8. If as a daimyo you dishonor a second samurai that is allied with you, thereby dissolving the alliance:
- do you as a daimyo incur some sort of dishonor and, if yes, how much?
- does the dishonored second samurai incur the 75 honor loss from the dishonor card in additrion to again becoming ronin?


I can't quite recall this... I think the choice is either to accept Ronin and pay no honour, or to pay the honour and stay second Samurai. The player who played the shame card suffers no penalty, but playing that card counts as playing two actions as usual.

Killdozer wrote:
9. If a defeated daimyo uses a save face card, does his house still retains all of its cards (except the castle - clear ruling on this one, for a change)?


Yes, Daimyo still keeps all his cards. No problem there.

Wait a few more days for further replies. I'm pretty sure about everything but I haven't played in a while and also haven't got the game with me currently, which is why I haven't played in a while, I really like this game...
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Stephen Allen
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Pedrator wrote:
Killdozer wrote:
2. If a shogun is assassinated by a ninja, does the "By Imperial Decree" card returns to the middle of the table as an unclaimed card? If yes, can it be immediately claimed by the player who just used the ninja assassin?


Once the "By Imperial Decree" has been claimed, it will never return to the centre of the table again. Instead, it is claimed by the player with the highest current honour. If a tie, It think it goes clockwise to the nearest player to the previous Shogunate


Is this a new rule in the German version? It does not exist in the original .

If the shogun dies (unless slain in battle) the "By Imperial Decree" goes back to the table and may be claimed during the Declaration phase.
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Cristian Lazarescu
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Pedrator wrote:
Not to my awareness. Overall the German ruling is regarded an improvement for several reasons. One you mentioned, another is that you can't have negative honor points (different to the original), so that players wouldn't be able to always play ninjas just for the sake of annoyance.

I had no idea about not being permitted to have negative honor in the German version. I'm not sure it's a good thing though, because:
A. one could become infamous, not merely dishonored and
B. it would lock up/freeze/delay too much all options for a player in a dire situation, thereby preventing him from ever getting back in the game.
Are there any other fundamental rule modifications in the German version? Better yet, can I find somewhere an English/French translated version on the German rulebook?

Pedrator wrote:
Once the "By Imperial Decree" has been claimed, it will never return to the centre of the table again. Instead, it is claimed by the player with the highest current honour. If a tie, It think it goes clockwise to the nearest player to the previous Shogunate.

Where does this ruling comes from? It makes no historical sense (at least none that I'm aware of) to automatically pass around the shogun title, as there were periods when no one was shogun.
Nearest player to the previous shogunate? In terms of honor or what?

Pedrator wrote:
If I recall correct, any of the above are correct except for the word "must".

So an elite ninja spy can actually steal from two different players, not from a single one - nice one. I wonder why it wasn't clearly written in the rules; several people have read the rules and none have come up with this interpretation.

Pedrator wrote:
You cannot. You can commit seppuku when another player plays the shame card on you, other players may attempt an assassination against your Daimyo and succeed and that's it. There is no other way for you to swap Daimyos, which is why being second Samurai can be so dangerous...

You can always provoke a battle that you're certain to lose and give yourself in the aftermath an improved daimyo .

Pedrator wrote:
I can't quite recall this... I think the choice is either to accept Ronin and pay no honour, or to pay the honour and stay second Samurai. The player who played the shame card suffers no penalty, but playing that card counts as playing two actions as usual.

Is this from the German rules? Quote from the English rules: "When a second samurai is dishonored, the alliance is automatically dissolved, unless a save face card is played."

Thank you very much for the answers so far.
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Pedro Pereira
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Killdozer wrote:
Pedrator wrote:
Not to my awareness. Overall the German ruling is regarded an improvement for several reasons. One you mentioned, another is that you can't have negative honor points (different to the original), so that players wouldn't be able to always play ninjas just for the sake of annoyance.

I had no idea about not being permitted to have negative honor in the German version. I'm not sure it's a good thing though, because:
A. one could become infamous, not merely dishonored and
B. it would lock up/freeze/delay too much all options for a player in a dire situation, thereby preventing him from ever getting back in the game.
Are there any other fundamental rule modifications in the German version? Better yet, can I find somewhere an English/French translated version on the German rulebook?


I disagree with you:
A: if you allow for negative points you will have players screw just for the sake of it, if at end-game they are at negative score anyway so just keep hitting and dragging on the game forever. This is a good decision.

B: You can always be second samurai and regain honour from there until you're able to rebuilt your houses. You'll notice that the game is a lot like that. Players who are on top suddenly have nothing left form one moment to the other. Then another player gets to the top, same happens to that player. It's a bit frustrating when it happens to you, but you'll see that it will happen to all players.

Killdozer wrote:
Pedrator wrote:
Once the "By Imperial Decree" has been claimed, it will never return to the centre of the table again. Instead, it is claimed by the player with the highest current honour. If a tie, It think it goes clockwise to the nearest player to the previous Shogunate.

Where does this ruling comes from? It makes no historical sense (at least none that I'm aware of) to automatically pass around the shogun title, as there were periods when no one was shogun.
Nearest player to the previous shogunate? In terms of honor or what?


Just checked the German rules: page 8 if the player defeated in battle was Shogun, the Shogun card goes to the player who defeated him/her in battle.

So you see, once the card is claimed, it stays in game till the end. This is a great mechanic.

Killdozer wrote:
Pedrator wrote:
If I recall correct, any of the above are correct except for the word "must".

So an elite ninja spy can actually steal from two different players, not from a single one - nice one. I wonder why it wasn't clearly written in the rules; several people have read the rules and none have come up with this interpretation.


That was one of the issues with this game. Poor rules.

Killdozer wrote:
Pedrator wrote:
You cannot. You can commit seppuku when another player plays the shame card on you, other players may attempt an assassination against your Daimyo and succeed and that's it. There is no other way for you to swap Daimyos, which is why being second Samurai can be so dangerous...

You can always provoke a battle that you're certain to lose and give yourself in the aftermath an improved daimyo .


That's correct.

Killdozer wrote:
Pedrator wrote:
I can't quite recall this... I think the choice is either to accept Ronin and pay no honour, or to pay the honour and stay second Samurai. The player who played the shame card suffers no penalty, but playing that card counts as playing two actions as usual.

Is this from the German rules? Quote from the English rules: "When a second samurai is dishonored, the alliance is automatically dissolved, unless a save face card is played."


You are correct! If you play dishonour on the second samurai, the alliance is immediately broken unless that player uses save-face.

Killdozer wrote:
Thank you very much for the answers so far.


No problem
 
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Pedro Pereira
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some_guy wrote:
Pedrator wrote:
Killdozer wrote:
2. If a shogun is assassinated by a ninja, does the "By Imperial Decree" card returns to the middle of the table as an unclaimed card? If yes, can it be immediately claimed by the player who just used the ninja assassin?


Once the "By Imperial Decree" has been claimed, it will never return to the centre of the table again. Instead, it is claimed by the player with the highest current honour. If a tie, It think it goes clockwise to the nearest player to the previous Shogunate


Is this a new rule in the German version? It does not exist in the original .

If the shogun dies (unless slain in battle) the "By Imperial Decree" goes back to the table and may be claimed during the Declaration phase.


Sorry, just checked the rules again. You are correct Stephen. If defeated in battle, the Shogun card goes to the victor. If killed by a ninja for example, the Shogun goes to centre of table until one player is forced to claim the card be Imperial Decree (100+ honour points).
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Cristian Lazarescu
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About forbidding negative honor, guess I'll just have to play with that rule and see how it goes.
Still, where can I get an English/French translation of the German rules? Or maybe a list of what other changes they've made?

Pedrator wrote:
So you see, once the card is claimed, it stays in game till the end. This is a great mechanic. (...)
Sorry, just checked the rules again. (...) If killed by a ninja for example, the Shogun goes to centre of table until one player is forced to claim the card be Imperial Decree.

I was talking about ninja assassination, but you figured it out in the end - glad to see Stephen and I got that right . So going back to the original questions:
1. In addition to dissolving the alliance, the second samurai also incures the dishonor loss from the card, correct?
2. The player who killed the shogun by ninja assassination can in the same turn declare himself shogun, thereby claiming the just freed Imperial Decree, correct?

Again, thanks to both of you .

(And sorry for possible delays in my replies, but it seems BGG is determined to not notify me of changes to this thread, despite doing it the first time.)
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Pedro Pereira
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Killdozer wrote:
About forbidding negative honor, guess I'll just have to play with that rule and see how it goes.
Still, where can I get an English/French translation of the German rules? Or maybe a list of what other changes they've made?

Pedrator wrote:
So you see, once the card is claimed, it stays in game till the end. This is a great mechanic. (...)
Sorry, just checked the rules again. (...) If killed by a ninja for example, the Shogun goes to centre of table until one player is forced to claim the card be Imperial Decree.

I was talking about ninja assassination, but you figured it out in the end - glad to see Stephen and I got that right . So going back to the original questions:
1. In addition to dissolving the alliance, the second samurai also incures the dishonor loss from the card, correct?
2. The player who killed the shogun by ninja assassination can in the same turn declare himself shogun, thereby claiming the just freed Imperial Decree, correct?

Again, thanks to both of you .

(And sorry for possible delays in my replies, but it seems BGG is determined to not notify me of changes to this thread, despite doing it the first time.)


Haha, yeah, I got it in the end. I haven't played it n a while, my copy is in Portugal and I am in Northern Ireland. I had to find the German rules on line to recall some of the bits.

As for your questions:

1: yes
2: yes

As for changes, I think the decision to be unable to go minus points by hiring Ninjas is the only change they did. I remember having read the English rules a loooong time ago so I can't remember details obviously. You can, naturally, still go minus points if dishonour is played on you, etc. But you can't hire ninjas if that put you on negative, and once negative, you can only hire ninjas if you managed your way back to the surface with positive honour points.

Let me know if you need anything else
 
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Cristian Lazarescu
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Will do and thanks for everything .
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Cristian Lazarescu
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Been a while, but here are two more uncommon situations we ran into.

1. There's a ronin with its household intact, which includes the infamous Gunpowder Weapons but no other Ki earning cards.
The ronin has 6 Ki (two actions available), while the Gunpowder Weapons has -2 Ki, which would bring the Ki total to 4, which in turn earns only 1 action. But the rules state that: a player will always be entitled to at least two card actions. So which is it: two actions or one (for this particular situation)?

2. Later in the game, same ronin gets a daimyo who earns 10 honor, but there are no other honor earning cards and/or none that can be played in his household. What honor does the player earns at the beginning of his/her turn, 0 or it goes negative because of the -20 Honor brought by the Gunpowder Weapons? And if this dire situation goes on, does it mean the player actually loses 10 Honor each turn until something changes?
 
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Pedro Pereira
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Killdozer wrote:
1. There's a ronin with its household intact, which includes the infamous Gunpowder Weapons but no other Ki earning cards.
The ronin has 6 Ki (two actions available), while the Gunpowder Weapons has -2 Ki, which would bring the Ki total to 4, which in turn earns only 1 action. But the rules state that: a player will always be entitled to at least two card actions. So which is it: two actions or one (for this particular situation)?


Go with the rules. It's important to get the game going. I'm sure that rule exists due to similar situations coming up during play test.

Killdozer wrote:
2. Later in the game, same ronin gets a daimyo who earns 10 honor, but there are no other honor earning cards and/or none that can be played in his household. What honor does the player earns at the beginning of his/her turn, 0 or it goes negative because of the -20 Honor brought by the Gunpowder Weapons? And if this dire situation goes on, does it mean the player actually loses 10 Honor each turn until something changes?


You can lose honor points in this game, so I'd say that you might even sink to negative honor points in this situation of you don't find a way to quickly remedy circumstances.

Hope this helps.
 
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Cristian Lazarescu
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My thoughts exactly, thank you for the answers.
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