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Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » Strategy

Subject: A glitch in the system: Conditional Surrender with multiple shrouds rss

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Whoba! Smith
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With Wave 3, Conditional Surrender (CS) becomes over powered due to the Dom Shroud card. It is just a little worse then a Kirk+Flagship multi-Cheat Death (CD) combo as it costs so little to build up.
Take any ship with 2 tech slots, put a single Dominion crew on it and CS. That ship can negate 3 attacks! 4 if boosted with a Flagship resource. For example the SP cost for a Keldon class ship is CD:4 + Shroud:1 x2 + BreenAide:2 = 8. 3 negates for 8 points?? The next best thing is Kirk + 2 CDs at 12 SP, but that can only be done on one ship, not multiple ships
Do this on 2 ships with 9 skill captains, and it will likely destroy at least one ship before other ships fire, reducing the load on the Shrouds - which could easily provide 1-2 free rounds of attacks.
I have only thought of one meaningful counter: I.K.S. Negh'var + Klingon Boarding party combo --- but you have to be lucky on taking out all the shields during first strike - else that ship is gone by the end of that round. And that ship has to be uncloaked and no shields and it is an expensive gamble at 5 SP.
It seems like Conditional Surrender should be not allowed with Dominion Crew to fix this mess. Other counters/ thoughts?
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Jon NyD

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Paging 2 point Miles O'Brien, come in Miles...
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Ted Kay
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Miles O'Brien to disable Conditional Surrender for a round, making the whole thing useless for that round.

Projected Stasis Field on the Klingon Independent Flagship for a free Scan action and Farek.

Projected Stasis Field/Klingon Boarding Party/Chang.

Two or more Positron Beams during the planning phase to prevent that ship taking actions.

Dealing out-of-combat damage via Cloaked Mines, Antimatter Mines, Nuclear Warhead, Gelnon, Ultritium Explosives w/Massacre, etc.

Conditional Surrender is good but not something to be feared if you understand what prevents it being helpful.

You didn't even mention the Weyoun who can disable to prevent a crew discarding either.
 
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shriek shriek
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or play faction pure. not sure why more people dont. just preference i suppose.
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Jonathan Bruce
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I think shroud defeats the purpose of conditional surrender. If no crew is discarded I don't think it should work.
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Whoba! Smith
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Some decent ideas, still not good enough. Here is my humble opinion of them.
Miles (Disable variant) can actually do something- but requires moving and auctioning after the other guy. Hard to do assuming the other player is playing it smart with capt skill 9 guys.
cryPSF: it is a discard and the defending ship can still CS that round (against a crappy attack). The PSF ship has no cloak or shields (yikes!) It would require multi-PSFs on multiple ships to be useful, but it would be limited to one less PSF than CS, and costs 5SP per. I.e you lose the SP war.
Mines are reasonable on maps with limited maneuverability. Open fields like OP6 are too open to have a good chance of getting more than 1 hit per mine. (I tried with dual cloaked mines. Which just isn't enough.
cryPositron Beams - CS is a free action not affected by aux tokens. Only reduces the probability of the number of hits.
Weyoun isn't interesting in this build. Captain skill of 9 is much better for the fire first story.


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Nova Cat
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As some who has used the Conditional Surrender build, I've gotta say it's strong, but not unbeatable. It's a big enough threat that people need to keep it in mind when making their fleet, but not so strong that you have to run it or lose to it.
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Kristoff Bergenholm
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Here's my take on it - Playing against it is bloody annoying, just like a cloaked-mine heavy fleet. It's certainly beatable, but it ruins the fun.
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Nova Cat
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Magentawolf wrote:
Here's my take on it - Playing against it is bloody annoying, just like a cloaked-mine heavy fleet. It's certainly beatable, but it ruins the fun.

That's my assessment as well.
 
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Stephen Thorpe
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Projected Stasis Field and Superior Intellect take the Conditional Surrender for your own use.

Miles O'Brian with Skill 9 captain

Miles O'Brian and Ferengi EM Pulse/Positron Beams combo

Projected Stasis field and Klingon Boarding Party
 
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Erin OConnor
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Look back to all the threads from OP2 when barrage of fire came along...
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Crazy Fella
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jonnyd76 wrote:
Paging 2 point Miles O'Brien, come in Miles...


Sorry to hijack the thread, but you just made me think of the Chief O'Brien at Work webcomic. Not complaining.

http://imgur.com/gallery/0IkGI
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Erin OConnor
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OmegaDolphin wrote:
jonnyd76 wrote:
Paging 2 point Miles O'Brien, come in Miles...


Sorry to hijack the thread, but you just made me think of the Chief O'Brien at Work webcomic. Not complaining.

http://imgur.com/gallery/0IkGI


That


Was


HILARIOUS!
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Jennifer Waters
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Magentawolf wrote:
Here's my take on it - Playing against it is bloody annoying, just like a cloaked-mine heavy fleet. It's certainly beatable, but it ruins the fun.
Who's fun? Pretty sure the person running it likes winning using it.

I don't run with con surrender, but my default loadout is to have 2 cloaked minefields to counter cloaked fleets. Good times if someone tries to joust through them repeatedly.
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Whoba! Smith
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shriek wrote:
or play faction pure. not sure why more people dont. just preference i suppose.

Because of the OP prizes Also because the game has mechanics for specifically for mixing factions (+1SP). However, I think the need to capitalize the game by putting our more ships and interesting cards is creating combos that aren't thought out. The Jan/Feb AO's made pure faction and dual ship builds competitive again. But these cards throw it out of whack again (assuming your local place still runs the AO's).
To that end, we are building up support to switch the OP events to faction pure by ship only in our area. I am saddened by this as it pulls a lot of the variety out of the game, but at the same time, I agree with my local mates, the game is broken otherwise.
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Whoba! Smith
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SteRT wrote:
Projected Stasis Field and Superior Intellect take the Conditional Surrender for your own use.
Miles O'Brian and Ferengi EM Pulse/Positron Beams combo

Thanks for all the brainstorming guys! My thoughts on the new suggestions:
PSF w/ SI to take the CS: requires the other ship to be without shields, which means you were really lucky with mines/ I.K.S. Negh'var. AND this only works on one of the 2 ships with the capability. Additionally - this is a min of 10-11sp. Still better and more flexible than other ideas.
Miles O'Brian and Ferengi EM Pulse/Positron Beams combo
Just slows the death of your ship.

 
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Sean Vess
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Even pure faction can be jank..


Admiral's Order: United Force (0)
Resource: Hideki Class Attack Fighters (20)

U.S.S Enterprise-D (28)
Jean-Luc Picard (6)
Engage (3)
Miles O'Brien (2)
Dmitri Valtane (3)
Antimatter Mines (5)
Ship SP: 47

Koranak (26)
Gul Dukat (5)
Captured Intelligence (3)
Boheeka (2)
Dorsal Weapons Array (3)
Cloaking Device (4)
Ship SP: 43

Total Build SP: 110

What's worse is I can drop the fighters and united force, add scotty and strike force and be even more brutal..

The problem is that if your fleet does not have 2-5 actions per ship a turn, you will have a bad time in the competitive events.
 
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I ran a build with Conditional Surrender, Weyoun-6, and multiple shrouds. My one crew member was the Breen Aide. After you spend your Shrouds cards, you can disable Weyoun to stop one attack per round. (Once Weyoun is disabled you cannot use Conditional Surrender as it is his Elite Talent.) I was able to stop many attacks round after round with this combo. It is powerful, any maybe partly broken.

In my opinion, the fix is the following. The Conditional Surrender card needs to be updated/reworded.
Quote:
When your ship is attacked, before any dice are rolled, discard this card and all of your (crew) Upgrades to cancel the attack. You must have at least 1 (crew) Upgrade on your ship in order to use this ability.
In this way you have to discard the Con.Surr. card as well as any crew. You can then "save" the crew with Shroud or Weyoun if possible.

Thematically, you can't really "surrender" over and over again. I think a real opponent would catch on to what you're doing after a while.
 
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In our local meta the one that continues to dominate is:

Strike Force
Valdore with Romulan Flagship
Weyoun (6)
Conditional Surrender
Bu'Kah

Valdore Class
Picard
Conditional Surrender
any random crew.

 
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Stanton Lackey
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My first recommendation would be to play faction pure. If your TO is too butt hurt to do that, then I would suggest running Miles O'brian or Seska. There are other options as well, such as targeting the other ships in his fleet, or if its a fun game just refuse to play with them... Honestly I have tested it out several times now, and while it is strong, it is by no means unbeatable.
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charles skrobis
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So I'm about done watching this build be paraded around as the big reason that mixed faction is unplayable, and pushing faction pure fixes it, so here goes my take.

Khazara
Independent Flagship (Federation)
Donatra
Interphase Generator
Interphase Generator
Varel
Centurion
Centurion
Centurion

Some other ships like Valdore on the Gal Ga'thong with plasma torpedoes or something.

So because Centurions can discard to stop a crew discard, I can now use Varel 4 times, with a back up of double interphase generators, the Hull and shields of the Jem'haddar battleship, with cloaking for 6 dice, a 5 die attack, and a free action evade every round. It also can give an ally ship a second action each turn, right at the range donatra helps them, and has great maneuvering with the Khazara. The next most annoying thing, is that if they can destroy 1 of your ships, in most builds, you'll have to destroy the Khazara or lose by fleet points anyways.

So this is just as obnoxious, while still being completely and utterly faction pure, to the point where united force would give them Varel for free if you're still using it. So barring options in faction pure doesn't really stop this as much as it just changes its form. The worst part is that while the shourd one hinges on Conditional surrender, and if you can disable that with miles O'brian you can hurt them for a turn, this one is resistant to that by having interphase generators, making it so you have to work that much harder to slow down or hurt. It also helps its allied ship much more then conditional surrender builds tend to, so it hurts that much more.

So the real question is if you have thoughts on how to to beat tank builds that refuse to take hits, in almost any format?
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Xander Fulton
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charles_skrobis wrote:
So I'm about done watching this build be paraded around as the big reason that mixed faction is unplayable, and pushing faction pure fixes it, so here goes my take.

Khazara
Independent Flagship (Federation)
Donatra
Interphase Generator
Interphase Generator
Varel
Centurion
Centurion
Centurion

Some other ships like Valdore on the Gal Ga'thong with plasma torpedoes or something.

So because Centurions can discard to stop a crew discard, I can now use Varel 4 times, with a back up of double interphase generators, the Hull and shields of the Jem'haddar battleship, with cloaking for 6 dice, a 5 die attack, and a free action evade every round. It also can give an ally ship a second action each turn, right at the range donatra helps them, and has great maneuvering with the Khazara. The next most annoying thing, is that if they can destroy 1 of your ships, in most builds, you'll have to destroy the Khazara or lose by fleet points anyways.

So this is just as obnoxious, while still being completely and utterly faction pure, to the point where united force would give them Varel for free if you're still using it. So barring options in faction pure doesn't really stop this as much as it just changes its form. The worst part is that while the shourd one hinges on Conditional surrender, and if you can disable that with miles O'brian you can hurt them for a turn, this one is resistant to that by having interphase generators, making it so you have to work that much harder to slow down or hurt. It also helps its allied ship much more then conditional surrender builds tend to, so it hurts that much more.

So the real question is if you have thoughts on how to to beat tank builds that refuse to take hits, in almost any format?


Huh - never thought of stacking interphase generators.

You could actually have some fun with that...

Quote:
I.R.W. Khazara (30)
Letant (4)
Flagship Independent (Fed) (10)
Centurion (4)
Centurion (4)
Centurion (4)
Varel (10)
Interphase Generator (3)
Interphase Generator (3)
Ship SP: 62

I.R.W. Praetus (14)
Mirok (2)
Additional Weapons Array (4)
Interphase Generator (3)
Interphase Generator (3)
Ship SP: 26

Total Build SP: 98


...I changed your Donatra out for Letant, to continue the theme of 'hit avoidance', and put Mirok on the Praetus to help repair the ship if it DOES take any hits (including anything its two interphase generators do, if it has to trigger them). And I prefer the Add'tl Weapons Array over *any* kind of torpedo, as it doesn't require a target lock to use - so you can fire it about twice as often.

That list would be...pretty dang annoying to fight...
 
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Jonathan Bruce
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I played someone with several shrouds and conditional surrender last OP. I just killed the ship over and over until he was out of shrouds. It looks good on paper but your spending your points on tricks instead of offensive power. You need to be able to capitalize on your extra life or your just delaying the inevitable.

However, I still think the card should only work if you ACTUALLY discard a crew member. Using Shroud or Centurion you haven't actually discarded anyone.
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Sodoff Baldrick
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This brings back the same discussion since OP1, to play faction pure or not. We have heard all the arguments for and against, but it is going to come down the TOs. Mixing factions is an optional rule so it will be up to them, and hopefully they are listening to the players.

Though I don't really think anyone wants to be sitting across the table from a Borg Sphere with Conditional Surrender on it, or Weyou/Verrel.
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Erin OConnor
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Mr S Baldrick wrote:
This brings back the same discussion since OP1, to play faction pure or not. We have heard all the arguments for and against, but it is going to come down the TOs. Mixing factions is an optional rule so it will be up to them, and hopefully they are listening to the players.

Though I don't really think anyone wants to be sitting across the table from a Borg Sphere with Conditional Surrender on it, or Weyou/Verrel.


Actually faction pure is the optional rule.
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