Joe Masinter
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Well, we made it through a 3 player short scenario, 6.1.5 with UK/France, it was a bit of a slog as we tried to find some answers in the rulebook to specific questions. Let me see if I can remember what came up that we didn't quite find the definitive answers to - I've referenced the sections of the rulebook.

9.4 Formation of nationals
Ok, so when the first 4, 6, or 8 train is bought, the current train buying phase is interrupted, and players may flip one or all of their majors into nationals. The ambiguity I perceived was if the the active 4/6/8-buying company was flipped, could it immediately acquire any of the newly rusted trains? My interpretation was that the 2/3/4 trains don't rust until the train buying phase is completed (11.6.3), so the currently active and newly nationalized company could only acquire trains that were rusted before the buying phase, or perhaps purchase a train from a major (11.6.6)

Reservation of regional secondary shares

8.4 "during the initial SR, each player my designate one regional's secondary share as reserved." This regional's secondary shares may not be purchased by any other player until the beginning of the next SR"
The mix of singular and plural "share(s)" here is confusing. Can you reserve both of one regional's shares, or just a single share certificate?

Use of privates to free up certificate limit
6.1, 10.0 It seems like if you haven't used your privates and want to free up a certificate space, you can close/flip the private, which removes it's revenue, but you still have the chance to exercise its power whenever appropriate. This seems more clear now upon review but was hard to find in the rules during play.
 
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Mark Frazier
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Re: A few rules questions
Joe,

On the formation of Nationals - you are correct. Be aware that the forming National can keep any trains that would have rusted.

Nice catch on the wording of 8.4 - it should read "this secondary share" (singular). The second paragraph in 8.4 should resolve the ambiguity.

As for closing privates, you got it! The "closed" status of a private has no effect at all on your ability to exercise its power. Since privates are never removed from play due to a train phase change, there's no harm in waiting to use the private power.

-Mark
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Lars Myrin
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Re: A few rules questions
If during the Regional/Minor railway phase players run out of money before all 18 or the Regionals are bought, how does the game proceed ?
The Concessions are not in use

Does the game continue with the first OR and just have the unsold Regionals available for purchase in the next SR ?

How does it differ if the Concessions are in use ?

Lars



 
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Mark Frazier
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Re: A few rules questions
Lars,

You go ahead and run ORs 1a and 1b. The remaining Regionals are available for purchase (until the 18th is bought) during the next stock round. When the 18th is bought, the Major RR phase begins.

As for Concessions, there's no difference - if a player is holding a Concession card and can't purchase a presidency, they must set the par for one and place the president's certificate in the open market for purchase by another player.

-Mark
 
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Re: A few rules questions
Ok, dumb questions time:

First, confirming that if you don't sell out the regionals, you go through 2 operating rounds. For a regular game, essentially the only thing the minor/regional can do train wise is buy the 1 reserved 2 train for themselves.

For the second operating round, no company can buy a second 2 train (they are all reserved for companies not yet in play), but could purchase a 3 train if they have the funds? (I admit this is highly unlikely since the companies won't have the cash, but in the case of some monster bid, it is possible). Either way, if there are a couple of rounds that the regionals don't get cleaned out, a train could accumulate enough money to technically purchase a 3 train.

After doing 2 OR's, back to stock phase, but only to open regionals since the second two shares are not available until a 3 train gets bought. (Just confirming).

On another subject, some hexes have a white circle with either a 10 or a 20 in it. Example of a 10 point is Le Havre. Example of a 20 point is Lille. Constantinople has 2 20 point. What are they for?

We plan on firing this game up this week as a 6 player using the fast start for our first game.
 
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Tucker Taylor
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Re: A few rules questions
Klydon wrote:
First, confirming that if you don't sell out the regionals, you go through 2 operating rounds.

You *always* play ORs in pairs. Exceptions: 1) during the initial auction, if everyone passes, private companies only pay revenue once not twice; 2) endgame timing may result in one to three ORs.

Quote:
For a regular game, essentially the only thing the minor/regional can do train wise is buy the 1 reserved 2 train for themselves.

Train-wise, correct; in fact they *must* buy their reserved 2+2 train during the first OR after they float.

Quote:
For the second operating round, no company can buy a second 2 train (they are all reserved for companies not yet in play), but could purchase a 3 train if they have the funds?

No. See Section 8.2, Regional/Minor Railroad Phase: phase ends when 12 minors and 18 regionals have floated, and during this phase "No RR may purchase a level 3 train."

Quote:
After doing 2 OR's, back to stock phase, but only to open regionals since the second two shares are not available until a 3 train gets bought. (Just confirming).

No. See section 8.3, Major Railroad Phase: "The Major RR Phase will begin during a SR when the Regional/Minor RR Phase ends."

Quote:
On another subject, some hexes have a white circle with either a 10 or a 20 in it. Example of a 10 point is Le Havre. Example of a 20 point is Lille. Constantinople has 2 20 point. What are they for?

... that is a truly excellent question.
 
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Re: A few rules questions
JazzFish wrote:
Klydon wrote:

After doing 2 OR's, back to stock phase, but only to open regionals since the second two shares are not available until a 3 train gets bought. (Just confirming).

No. See section 8.3, Major Railroad Phase: "The Major RR Phase will begin during a SR when the Regional/Minor RR Phase ends."


First, thanks to the fast answers to all the questions.

On this particular one, I should perhaps further clarify that if during the minor/regional phase, 18 regionals are not yet bought after all players pass (due to shortage of money presumably), 2 OR's are played and then back to a stock round where the only action players may take is to buy the president's share of an available regional. This goes until 18 are bought. No other action is possible to a player in terms of purchase until those 18 regionals are purchased.
 
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Re: A few rules questions
Klydon wrote:
First, thanks to the fast answers to all the questions.

On this particular one, I should perhaps further clarify that if during the minor/regional phase, 18 regionals are not yet bought after all players pass (due to shortage of money presumably), 2 OR's are played and then back to a stock round where the only action players may take is to buy the president's share of an available regional. This goes until 18 are bought. No other action is possible to a player in terms of purchase until those 18 regionals are purchased.

You're most welcome!

Regardless of the number of ORs played, until such time as all 12 minors and 18 of the 24 regionals are floated, you're in the Regional/Minor phase (section 8.2). Per the rulebook, things you can do are:
* Float a minor you own
* Float a regional
* Purchase a parred regional, provided one exists (ie, if someone miscalculated on concessions)
* Remove an unfloated & unparred regional, provided 1) it's not the 7th removed and 2) one hasn't been removed from its track rights zone.
* Pass, provided you've floated all your minors

So, at that point you can't float a major or buy secondary shares of a regional.

Once the last minor and 18th regional have been floated, the game IMMEDIATELY moves into the Major RR phase (section 8.3). At that point the game opens up: you can buy secondary share of a regional, float a major, buy shares in a floated major, etc.

Also, beginning with the OR after you enter the Major RR phase, you can buy level 3 trains (exception: first OR of the game). So, per your original question, buying a 3-train doesn't trigger the Major RR phase; entering the Major RR phase triggers allowing you to buy 3-trains.

After a 3-train has been bought, then you start being allowed to merge minors into majors, beginning with the next SR. Which may be where the confusion came from?
 
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Mark Frazier
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Re: A few rules questions
JazzFish wrote:

Regardless of the number of ORs played, until such time as all 12 minors and 18 of the 24 regionals are floated, you're in the Regional/Minor phase (section 8.2). Per the rulebook, things you can do are:
* Float a minor you own
* Float a regional
* Purchase a parred regional, provided one exists (ie, if someone miscalculated on concessions)
* Remove an unfloated & unparred regional, provided 1) it's not the 7th removed and 2) one hasn't been removed from its track rights zone.
* Pass, provided you've floated all your minors


Since you can't pass until you've floated all of your minors, the only actions available in SRs after you've run any ORs are:

* Float a regional
* Purchase a parred regional, provided one exists (ie, if someone miscalculated on concessions)
* Remove an unfloated & unparred regional, provided 1) it's not the 7th removed and 2) one hasn't been removed from its track rights zone.
* Pass.

-Mark
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Mark Frazier
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Re: A few rules questions
Klydon wrote:
On another subject, some hexes have a white circle with either a 10 or a 20 in it. Example of a 10 point is Le Havre. Example of a 20 point is Lille. Constantinople has 2 20 point. What are they for?


Those cities can be used as city stops on train routes, even before yellow track is laid in the hex.

-Mark
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Re: A few rules questions
Ganraeln wrote:
Klydon wrote:
On another subject, some hexes have a white circle with either a 10 or a 20 in it. Example of a 10 point is Le Havre. Example of a 20 point is Lille. Constantinople has 2 20 point. What are they for?


Those cities can be used as city stops on train routes, even before yellow track is laid in the hex.

-Mark


Mark, this comes in to play in terms of them being a port? (IE, no tile is there, but I can run into the hex because it has a port and I count the value of it as whatever is in the circle?). I don't know that this would come up that often as you would think someone could find something of higher value to run to, but good to know either way.
 
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Mark Frazier
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Re: A few rules questions
Yes - two examples:

1) Lille - has a ferry but no port; can be run to from London only until a tile is laid.

2) Nantes - has a port; can be run to from the adjacent sea zone until a tile is laid.

It is unlikely that you wouldn't find another place to run to that's better, but there are rare cases when you're glad the option's available.
 
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Stephe Thomas
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Re: A few rules questions
I have some more rules questions.

Is the number of 8+8/5D trains supplied intended to limit play? If so, what do you do if a major company is obliged to buy a train and none are available?

The usual 18xx constraint that newly-laid track must form part of a route is expressed "as if you were running a train with no city limit". Since a National doesn't run trains in the usual sense, how is connectivity determined? If the only way it can access a hex is via a route that goes through a city in some other rights area, can it lay track there? (While I'm here, it took me a while to find the rule that gives Nationals sort-of tokens everywhere in its home area.)

Also, consider a Regional/Major that is newly formed with no track nearby. It lays a city tile in its home hex. May it then lay a plain track tile in an adjacent hex? (I ask because in order to run a train, the train needs to visit two cities/towns/etc. and in the example there's only one available.)

Suppose a Regional forms, and then grows up to be a Major before it deploys its £20 token. Is that £20 token available to it when it operates as a Major?

When a Major transfers a token from another Major, must it be able to trace a route to the site of the transferred token. (Before the transfer--obviously, it would be connected afterwards!)

Suppose a company owns a Port Authority marker. May it discard it (for example in order to buy one of the other type)?

Suppose the B&B,E private has laid one of its tokens in some hex. Another company wishes to remove it. Must that other company be able to trace a route to the hex? Where relevant, must it be in the correct track rights zone?
 
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Mark Frazier
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Re: A few rules questions
maisnestce wrote:
I have some more rules questions.

Is the number of 8+8/5D trains supplied intended to limit play? If so, what do you do if a major company is obliged to buy a train and none are available?

The usual 18xx constraint that newly-laid track must form part of a route is expressed "as if you were running a train with no city limit". Since a National doesn't run trains in the usual sense, how is connectivity determined? If the only way it can access a hex is via a route that goes through a city in some other rights area, can it lay track there? (While I'm here, it took me a while to find the rule that gives Nationals sort-of tokens everywhere in its home area.)

Also, consider a Regional/Major that is newly formed with no track nearby. It lays a city tile in its home hex. May it then lay a plain track tile in an adjacent hex? (I ask because in order to run a train, the train needs to visit two cities/towns/etc. and in the example there's only one available.)

Suppose a Regional forms, and then grows up to be a Major before it deploys its £20 token. Is that £20 token available to it when it operates as a Major?

When a Major transfers a token from another Major, must it be able to trace a route to the site of the transferred token. (Before the transfer--obviously, it would be connected afterwards!)

Suppose a company owns a Port Authority marker. May it discard it (for example in order to buy one of the other type)?

Suppose the B&B,E private has laid one of its tokens in some hex. Another company wishes to remove it. Must that other company be able to trace a route to the hex? Where relevant, must it be in the correct track rights zone?


As for quantities of trains - they are all VERY deliberate. Note that the total number of permanent trains (levels 5,6,7 and 8) add up to just enough trains to fill every opening on every Major. Also note that if any Nationals form there tends to be an excess of permanent trains :)

As for National track-laying: since Nationals are considered to have pseudo tokens in every city within their Track Rights zone, they may lay track accordingly. Does that answer your question?

(Forgive my lack of pound symbols) The $20 token is still available to the Major.

Transferred tokens are not required to be connected.

You cannot voluntarily discard a Port Authority.

B&BE - yes, on all counts.

-Mark

 
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Re: A few rules questions
Ganraeln wrote:

As for quantities of trains - they are all VERY deliberate. Note that the total number of permanent trains (levels 5,6,7 and 8) add up to just enough trains to fill every opening on every Major. Also note that if any Nationals form there tends to be an excess of permanent trains

I had noticed that the number of permanent trains is equal to the number of train slots in Majors. But Nationals can own three trains, and in principle all three of them could be permanent trains (though on the strength of very nearly one game played I suspect that in practice the average less than one). So in theory you could have two Nationals with three permanent trains each, fifteen Majors with two each, and one Major that is required to own a train but which can't buy one from the bank because there are none in the train sheds. I do so love rules which make certain actions both compulsory and forbidden.
Ganraeln wrote:

As for National track-laying: since Nationals are considered to have pseudo tokens in every city within their Track Rights zone, they may lay track accordingly. Does that answer your question?

Not to my complete satisfaction, no. When a National calculates its revenue, it does so without its trains tracing routes. The cities it counts for revenue don't have to be connected to each other. So when it tries to determine connectivity as if it were running a train with no city limit, the rules seem to me to be silent on just how. I'm quite prepared to believe that a National running its "hypothetical track-building train" (to borrow a phrase from another rules set) does so in much the same manner as would a Major, but the rules don't say so. And when a National calculates its revenue, it can't go outside its home territory, which is why I asked about tracing a route via foreign territory.
 
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Mark Frazier
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Re: A few rules questions
maisnestce wrote:

I had noticed that the number of permanent trains is equal to the number of train slots in Majors. But Nationals can own three trains, and in principle all three of them could be permanent trains (though on the strength of very nearly one game played I suspect that in practice the average less than one). So in theory you could have two Nationals with three permanent trains each, fifteen Majors with two each, and one Major that is required to own a train but which can't buy one from the bank because there are none in the train sheds. I do so love rules which make certain actions both compulsory and forbidden.

Ganraeln wrote:

As for National track-laying: since Nationals are considered to have pseudo tokens in every city within their Track Rights zone, they may lay track accordingly. Does that answer your question?

Not to my complete satisfaction, no. When a National calculates its revenue, it does so without its trains tracing routes. The cities it counts for revenue don't have to be connected to each other. So when it tries to determine connectivity as if it were running a train with no city limit, the rules seem to me to be silent on just how. I'm quite prepared to believe that a National running its "hypothetical track-building train" (to borrow a phrase from another rules set) does so in much the same manner as would a Major, but the rules don't say so. And when a National calculates its revenue, it can't go outside its home territory, which is why I asked about tracing a route via foreign territory.


Aha! Caught in my own well-laid trap :)

I have yet, in practice, to see a single game last long enough for every National that forms to have enough time to soak up 3 permanent trains. I think you'll find that it is a sub-par endeavor to do so, but if you do find a way to make it happen and be more profitable than leaving the trains on your Majors, let me know.

That said, I'd be inclined to say that the errata will have to include a rule amendment something along the lines of lifting the mandatory train purchase if no trains are available for purchase from the locomotive works.

As for the National train route/track laying issue, I'll clarify that as well so that it specifies laying track as if you're running a non-National train with no city limit.

-Mark
 
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Matt Campbell
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Re: A few rules questions
Are the yellow tiles limited to what came in the kit?

1. Plain yellow track?
2. Single dot tiles?
3. Yellow city tiles?
4. Double dot tiles?
5. G city tiles?

Thanks! Matt
 
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Mark Frazier
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Re: A few rules questions
kirkusmaximus wrote:
Are the yellow tiles limited to what came in the kit?

1. Plain yellow track?
2. Single dot tiles?
3. Yellow city tiles?
4. Double dot tiles?
5. G city tiles?

Thanks! Matt


You may consider yellow track to be unlimited.

All green, brown and grey tiles are (intentionally) limited to the tile mix.

-Mark
 
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Matt Campbell
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Re: A few rules questions
Thanks for the quick response, Mark!
 
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Dave Berry
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Re: A few rules questions
Ganraeln wrote:
kirkusmaximus wrote:
Are the yellow tiles limited to what came in the kit?


You may consider yellow track to be unlimited.


I guess you could buy a second copy of the game to be sure you never run out. whistle
 
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Tucker Taylor
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Re: A few rules questions
daveberry wrote:
Ganraeln wrote:
kirkusmaximus wrote:
Are the yellow tiles limited to what came in the kit?

You may consider yellow track to be unlimited.

I guess you could buy a second copy of the game to be sure you never run out. whistle

More likely it's a marketing ploy to get us all to buy 18C2C when that comes out.

(edit: in case it's not clear i am totally kidding, there is plenty of yellow track in 18OE for most normal situations.)
 
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Re: A few rules questions

The more I think about it, the double dot town tiles are supposed to be limited, even in yellow. The only track tiles that were intended to be unlimited were the 8 and 9 tiles (soft curve and straight plain track).

The rest were counted out carefully based on town, double town, city, and grand city counts on the map.

The most likely "shortage" you'll run into is with double towns. Any others that begin coming up short are likely due to the phenomenon I saw happen with 18C2C - that being players who have a habit of using a particular type of tile (straight vs. soft curve) when the choice appears to be irrelevant...

-Mark
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Re: A few rules questions

At the risk of sounding like I'm flailing, I have posted an updated Cyberboard gamebox on my website.

ALL yellow tiles in the gamebox are also available as markers as well as being in tile trays.

The tile tray counts are identical to the published edition's tile counts, so if you are of the mindset to play the game as you may need to in face-to-face play, just don't use the markers.

I will stand firm on the ruling that in any tournament play, the tile counts other than the 8 and 9 tiles (yellow soft curve and straight plain track) are explicitly limited.

-Mark
 
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Mark Thompson
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Ganraeln wrote:
Yes - two examples:

1) Lille - has a ferry but no port; can be run to from London only until a tile is laid.

2) Nantes - has a port; can be run to from the adjacent sea zone until a tile is laid.

It is unlikely that you wouldn't find another place to run to that's better, but there are rare cases when you're glad the option's available.


For the Constantinople case does running to the port prior to laying a tile count for an OE run?
 
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Mark,

Thanks for asking - There is one "misprint" on the board in Constantinople that could create some confusion on this point.

The northern port is NOT an offshore port - so must have a track connection in order for a train to run into Constantinople from the Black Sea.

The southern port is where the confusion may lie - there is both a port spur on the south side in the Aegean AND an offshort port in the Aegean. You may consider the offshore port to take precedence, so there is no requirement for track to be laid in the hex before running to Constantinople through the Aegean Sea.

-Mark
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