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Subject: Clyde 2.0 rss

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robert
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Clyde 2.0 reads "Ongoing- If your actions played on minions here go to the discard pile, you may place them into your hand instead"

Does this work after a base scores? The rules say a base scoring triggers discard effects but, my group assumed everything kind of was discarded at the same time including Clyde making it so the ability doesnt exist anymore to save the actions.

Any thoughts on if we were correct?
 
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sonus wrote:
Clyde 2.0 reads "Ongoing- If your actions played on minions here go to the discard pile, you may place them into your hand instead"

Does this work after a base scores? The rules say a base scoring triggers discard effects but, my group assumed everything kind of was discarded at the same time including Clyde making it so the ability doesnt exist anymore to save the actions.

Any thoughts on if we were correct?

I think your group made the right call
 
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Travis Vandenberg
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sonus wrote:
Clyde 2.0 reads "Ongoing- If your actions played on minions here go to the discard pile, you may place them into your hand instead"

Does this work after a base scores? The rules say a base scoring triggers discard effects but, my group assumed everything kind of was discarded at the same time including Clyde making it so the ability doesnt exist anymore to save the actions.

Any thoughts on if we were correct?


I would argue that this wasn't the correct decision. This expansion has a lot of cards that talk about minions moving to the discard pile. I don't believe there are any instances where minions in play are moved to the discard pile aside from being destroyed (actions on the other hand in rare circumstances can go to the discard pile without being destroyed). I would assume that the creators intended these conditions to apply during base scoring or else they would have just said, "When this minion/action is destroyed".

I don't have proof that this is the case but if it weren't, Doppleganger wouldn't be very useful (it's hard enough to kill a minion of 5 power, who would kill one that gets replaced right away) and Clyde 2.0 would be a pretty lame card as well.
 
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WhatAChamp wrote:
sonus wrote:
Clyde 2.0 reads "Ongoing- If your actions played on minions here go to the discard pile, you may place them into your hand instead"

Does this work after a base scores? The rules say a base scoring triggers discard effects but, my group assumed everything kind of was discarded at the same time including Clyde making it so the ability doesnt exist anymore to save the actions.

Any thoughts on if we were correct?


I would argue that this wasn't the correct decision. This expansion has a lot of cards that talk about minions moving to the discard pile. I don't believe there are any instances where minions in play are moved to the discard pile aside from being destroyed (actions on the other hand in rare circumstances can go to the discard pile without being destroyed). I would assume that the creators intended these conditions to apply during base scoring or else they would have just said, "When this minion/action is destroyed".

I don't have proof that this is the case but if it weren't, Doppleganger wouldn't be very useful (it's hard enough to kill a minion of 5 power, who would kill one that gets replaced right away) and Clyde 2.0 would be a pretty lame card as well.

Simple and concise is always better. Otherwise you have to say: If a minion with an action on it is returned to your hand, placed on the bottom of its owners deck, destroyed, or the base scores; or the action is destroyed you may return the action to your hand.
Destroyed cards are discarded and any actions attached to them are then discarded. It's still a good card even though it does not get your actions back if it is on a scoring base. Think about archmage. He's great on a ninja dojo because you don't want him leaving play ever if you can avoid it.
 
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Travis Vandenberg
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Alright I can concede that maybe Clyde 2.0 can be a half decent card still but Doppleganger is a pretty lame card then if that's your read on it. If you can give me an instance where a minion would go to your discard pile without being destroyed I can agree with your interpretation but since Doppleganger has the same wording (which could have just been written as "when this minion is destroyed"), I strongly feel that the developers meant for this type of wording to apply to base scoring as well.
 
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Ryan Post
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WhatAChamp wrote:
Alright I can concede that maybe Clyde 2.0 can be a half decent card still but Doppleganger is a pretty lame card then if that's your read on it. If you can give me an instance where a minion would go to your discard pile without being destroyed I can agree with your interpretation but since Doppleganger has the same wording (which could have just been written as "when this minion is destroyed"), I strongly feel that the developers meant for this type of wording to apply to base scoring as well.


A minion goes to the discard when the base scores. It says so in the rules.
Another good combo is to flying monkey a minion to a base where Clyde is.
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Travis Vandenberg
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posterchild21 wrote:
WhatAChamp wrote:
Alright I can concede that maybe Clyde 2.0 can be a half decent card still but Doppleganger is a pretty lame card then if that's your read on it. If you can give me an instance where a minion would go to your discard pile without being destroyed I can agree with your interpretation but since Doppleganger has the same wording (which could have just been written as "when this minion is destroyed"), I strongly feel that the developers meant for this type of wording to apply to base scoring as well.


A minion goes to the discard when the base scores. It says so in the rules.
Another good combo is to flying monkey a minion to a base where Clyde is.


That's not what is being argued. What is being argued is that since Clyde is going to the discard pile at the same time, it's difficult to determine whether his ability still applies. I'm inclined to agree that it does. Also the flying monkey combo is pretty ingenious. I had never thought of that.
 
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Ryan Post
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WhatAChamp wrote:
posterchild21 wrote:
WhatAChamp wrote:
Alright I can concede that maybe Clyde 2.0 can be a half decent card still but Doppleganger is a pretty lame card then if that's your read on it. If you can give me an instance where a minion would go to your discard pile without being destroyed I can agree with your interpretation but since Doppleganger has the same wording (which could have just been written as "when this minion is destroyed"), I strongly feel that the developers meant for this type of wording to apply to base scoring as well.


A minion goes to the discard when the base scores. It says so in the rules.
Another good combo is to flying monkey a minion to a base where Clyde is.


That's not what is being argued. What is being argued is that since Clyde is going to the discard pile at the same time, it's difficult to determine whether his ability still applies. I'm inclined to agree that it does. Also the flying monkey combo is pretty ingenious. I had never thought of that.


You asked for a single instance of when a minion goes to the discard without being destroyed. I gave you one, being that a base scoring is a discard and not a destruction (ask Buccaneer).

As to the point of your argument, you are confusing Doppelganger and Clyde's text and merging them. Doppelganger is a Special, and it says to take place after the base scores. Clyde is an ongoing ability, and everyone knows you have to be an in play minion for your ongoing ability to have any effect.

So you are right that Doppelganger's player includes when a base breaks, but that means nothing in terms of the Clyde debate.

Really, it would be up to the creators of the game, but I would agree that a base scoring would make Clyde's ability no longer effective
 
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In the rules it says under "Back to Your Corners"

'All cards still on that base go to their owners discard piles. This does not destroy them, but might trigger abilities that happen when they go to the discard pile'

And under "Void Where Prohibited" it says:
'If multiple effects would happen at the same time, the player whose turn it is chooses the order'


So with clyde, you should as active player be able to say, which is discarded first, keeping clyde in Game to use its ability to the fullest (or deny it if its not yours).
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Travis Vandenberg
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posterchild21 wrote:
WhatAChamp wrote:
posterchild21 wrote:
WhatAChamp wrote:
Alright I can concede that maybe Clyde 2.0 can be a half decent card still but Doppleganger is a pretty lame card then if that's your read on it. If you can give me an instance where a minion would go to your discard pile without being destroyed I can agree with your interpretation but since Doppleganger has the same wording (which could have just been written as "when this minion is destroyed"), I strongly feel that the developers meant for this type of wording to apply to base scoring as well.


A minion goes to the discard when the base scores. It says so in the rules.
Another good combo is to flying monkey a minion to a base where Clyde is.


That's not what is being argued. What is being argued is that since Clyde is going to the discard pile at the same time, it's difficult to determine whether his ability still applies. I'm inclined to agree that it does. Also the flying monkey combo is pretty ingenious. I had never thought of that.


You asked for a single instance of when a minion goes to the discard without being destroyed. I gave you one, being that a base scoring is a discard and not a destruction (ask Buccaneer).

As to the point of your argument, you are confusing Doppelganger and Clyde's text and merging them. Doppelganger is a Special, and it says to take place after the base scores. Clyde is an ongoing ability, and everyone knows you have to be an in play minion for your ongoing ability to have any effect.

So you are right that Doppelganger's player includes when a base breaks, but that means nothing in terms of the Clyde debate.

Really, it would be up to the creators of the game, but I would agree that a base scoring would make Clyde's ability no longer effective


Fair enough. I didn't realize that the Doppleganger's ability was a Special while Clyde's was only Ongoing. I thought they were both Ongoing. What I wanted was an example of a minion going to the discard pile ASIDE from a base breaking. My point was that the only time minions go to the discard pile are when they're destroyed or bases break. I was using this to argue that Clyde 2.0 should follow the same procedure as Doppleganger and that Doppleganger seemed to imply that its ability happened when bases break. However, the Ongoing vs. Special does make it a different case. Sorry for the confusion.

One thing I will point out though is that there doesn't seem to be a clear line drawn for specials anymore. For example, "Time is Fleeting" allows you to play a base from the discard pile after a base scores. However, it does not have Special attached to it in anyway so it would seem to have to be played during your turn even though the conditions wouldn't allow it to be played. That being said, I think it's tough to distinguish what the developers' intent was at times. Perhaps Clyde 2.0 was intended to also include base scoring but since they wanted to make sure people knew it was an Ongoing affect too (so it didn't just happen when bases scored), they opted for Ongoing. Or perhaps like someone mentioned, they just wanted to cover the possibility of actions being discarded due to minions being returned.
 
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I withdraw what I said about Archmage earlier. Clyde 2.0 appears to be base specific, not global.
ebqz wrote:
In the rules it says under "Back to Your Corners"

'All cards still on that base go to their owners discard piles. This does not destroy them, but might trigger abilities that happen when they go to the discard pile'

And under "Void Where Prohibited" it says:
'If multiple effects would happen at the same time, the player whose turn it is chooses the order'


So with clyde, you should as active player be able to say, which is discarded first, keeping clyde in Game to use its ability to the fullest (or deny it if its not yours).


I have to think about this.
 
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Ryan Post
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WhatAChamp wrote:
posterchild21 wrote:
WhatAChamp wrote:
posterchild21 wrote:
WhatAChamp wrote:
Alright I can concede that maybe Clyde 2.0 can be a half decent card still but Doppleganger is a pretty lame card then if that's your read on it. If you can give me an instance where a minion would go to your discard pile without being destroyed I can agree with your interpretation but since Doppleganger has the same wording (which could have just been written as "when this minion is destroyed"), I strongly feel that the developers meant for this type of wording to apply to base scoring as well.


A minion goes to the discard when the base scores. It says so in the rules.
Another good combo is to flying monkey a minion to a base where Clyde is.


That's not what is being argued. What is being argued is that since Clyde is going to the discard pile at the same time, it's difficult to determine whether his ability still applies. I'm inclined to agree that it does. Also the flying monkey combo is pretty ingenious. I had never thought of that.


You asked for a single instance of when a minion goes to the discard without being destroyed. I gave you one, being that a base scoring is a discard and not a destruction (ask Buccaneer).

As to the point of your argument, you are confusing Doppelganger and Clyde's text and merging them. Doppelganger is a Special, and it says to take place after the base scores. Clyde is an ongoing ability, and everyone knows you have to be an in play minion for your ongoing ability to have any effect.

So you are right that Doppelganger's player includes when a base breaks, but that means nothing in terms of the Clyde debate.

Really, it would be up to the creators of the game, but I would agree that a base scoring would make Clyde's ability no longer effective


Fair enough. I didn't realize that the Doppleganger's ability was a Special while Clyde's was only Ongoing. I thought they were both Ongoing. What I wanted was an example of a minion going to the discard pile ASIDE from a base breaking. My point was that the only time minions go to the discard pile are when they're destroyed or bases break. I was using this to argue that Clyde 2.0 should follow the same procedure as Doppleganger and that Doppleganger seemed to imply that its ability happened when bases break. However, the Ongoing vs. Special does make it a different case. Sorry for the confusion.

One thing I will point out though is that there doesn't seem to be a clear line drawn for specials anymore. For example, "Time is Fleeting" allows you to play a base from the discard pile after a base scores. However, it does not have Special attached to it in anyway so it would seem to have to be played during your turn even though the conditions wouldn't allow it to be played. That being said, I think it's tough to distinguish what the developers' intent was at times. Perhaps Clyde 2.0 was intended to also include base scoring but since they wanted to make sure people knew it was an Ongoing affect too (so it didn't just happen when bases scored), they opted for Ongoing. Or perhaps like someone mentioned, they just wanted to cover the possibility of actions being discarded due to minions being returned.


I agree completely that it is hard to tell what they intended. Heck, if they hadn't said it on Facebook there is no way I would play Cellular Bonding the way they stated. My group just does it's best to interpret the rules exactly as they are written, and change if AEG says otherwise.

For Time is Fleeting, I have no idea what they did. But, it is literally impossible to play that card not as a Special. The Drawing of a base takes place after you play cards, so you cannot play it unless you play as a special, so that is how we use it.
 
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Ryan Post
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darkNES386 wrote:
I withdraw what I said about Archmage earlier. Clyde 2.0 appears to be base specific, not global.
ebqz wrote:
In the rules it says under "Back to Your Corners"

'All cards still on that base go to their owners discard piles. This does not destroy them, but might trigger abilities that happen when they go to the discard pile'

And under "Void Where Prohibited" it says:
'If multiple effects would happen at the same time, the player whose turn it is chooses the order'


So with clyde, you should as active player be able to say, which is discarded first, keeping clyde in Game to use its ability to the fullest (or deny it if its not yours).


I have to think about this.


Yeah, I am not sure how discarding all cards at once could be seen as multiple effects. Discarding everything would be one thing, not multiple, and it also isn't really an effect. Also, this would create a situation where whoever's turn it is would decide if you put the cards back in your hand, which is weird and unnatural.
 
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Travis Vandenberg
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posterchild21 wrote:
darkNES386 wrote:
I withdraw what I said about Archmage earlier. Clyde 2.0 appears to be base specific, not global.
ebqz wrote:
In the rules it says under "Back to Your Corners"

'All cards still on that base go to their owners discard piles. This does not destroy them, but might trigger abilities that happen when they go to the discard pile'

And under "Void Where Prohibited" it says:
'If multiple effects would happen at the same time, the player whose turn it is chooses the order'


So with clyde, you should as active player be able to say, which is discarded first, keeping clyde in Game to use its ability to the fullest (or deny it if its not yours).


I have to think about this.


Yeah, I am not sure how discarding all cards at once could be seen as multiple effects. Discarding everything would be one thing, not multiple, and it also isn't really an effect. Also, this would create a situation where whoever's turn it is would decide if you put the cards back in your hand, which is weird and unnatural.


That seems like the logical conclusion based on their rules. However, I think I'll just play it as if Clyde's ability works when a base scores for simplicity's sake
 
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Bryan Stout
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I was one of the playtesters for Science Fiction Double Feature, and since the AEG folks have not started answering yet, I will answer as authoritatively as I can, with these cautions: several of the cards have had their names changed and/or their ability working tweaked since playtest time; it's possible that rulings made for playtesters might have been reconsidered and changed for the published version. With that proviso:

sonus wrote:
Clyde 2.0 reads "Ongoing- If your actions played on minions here go to the discard pile, you may place them into your hand instead"

Does this work after a base scores?

Yes, it works during scoring. At least it did for us.

WhatAChamp wrote:
... What I wanted was an example of a minion going to the discard pile ASIDE from a base breaking. My point was that the only time minions go to the discard pile are when they're destroyed or bases break. I was using this to argue that Clyde 2.0 should follow the same procedure as Doppleganger and that Doppleganger seemed to imply that its ability happened when bases break. However, the Ongoing vs. Special does make it a different case. Sorry for the confusion.

Clyde's power isn't about the minions being discarded, but the actions on the minions going to the discard pile. This can happen without the minion itself going to the discard pile, e.g. when a minion is returned to the hand.

Quote:
One thing I will point out though is that there doesn't seem to be a clear line drawn for specials anymore. For example, "Time is Fleeting" allows you to play a base from the discard pile after a base scores. However, it does not have Special attached to it in anyway ...

The playtest version of the card (which had a different name) was labeled Special. I assume that in the wording changes they made for publication, that "Special" was accidentally omitted.
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Thanks for your insight on it. It's good to know that it was playtested that way.

However, as for my comment about minions, I made a poor comparison using Doppleganger. I'm aware that Clyde 2.0 deals with actions being sent to the discard pile, not minions. However, let's compare this with the power 2 minion from the Time Travelers called Jumper. Jumper states "Ongoing: When this minion goes to the discard pile (from play), you may place it back into your hand." Clyde 2.0 states "Ongoing: If your actions played on minions here go to the discard pile, you may place them into your hand instead."

My argument is that there is no instance in which Jumper would go to the discard pile from play ASIDE from being destroyed or being on a scoring base. If the developers intended the Jumper's ongoing ability to not apply when the base was being scored, wouldn't they have just written "When this minion is destroyed, you may place it back into your hand"? It only seems logical that their intent in this wording was that it would apply to base scoring as well.

Since the wording is similar to Clyde's and they both have the Ongoing clause, I think it would be safe to assume if we agree that Jumpers go back to your hand after base scoring, the actions on Clyde's base should as well. Of course with Clyde there are other instances where actions could go to the discard pile aside from being destroyed, but we shouldn't exclude base scoring from his ability since it's so closely linked to Jumper's ability which is obviously intended for use in base scoring
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Ryan Post
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Barliman wrote:
I was one of the playtesters for Science Fiction Double Feature, and since the AEG folks have not started answering yet, I will answer as authoritatively as I can, with these cautions: several of the cards have had their names changed and/or their ability working tweaked since playtest time; it's possible that rulings made for playtesters might have been reconsidered and changed for the published version. With that proviso:

sonus wrote:
Clyde 2.0 reads "Ongoing- If your actions played on minions here go to the discard pile, you may place them into your hand instead"

Does this work after a base scores?

Yes, it works during scoring. At least it did for us.

WhatAChamp wrote:
... What I wanted was an example of a minion going to the discard pile ASIDE from a base breaking. My point was that the only time minions go to the discard pile are when they're destroyed or bases break. I was using this to argue that Clyde 2.0 should follow the same procedure as Doppleganger and that Doppleganger seemed to imply that its ability happened when bases break. However, the Ongoing vs. Special does make it a different case. Sorry for the confusion.

Clyde's power isn't about the minions being discarded, but the actions on the minions going to the discard pile. This can happen without the minion itself going to the discard pile, e.g. when a minion is returned to the hand.

Quote:
One thing I will point out though is that there doesn't seem to be a clear line drawn for specials anymore. For example, "Time is Fleeting" allows you to play a base from the discard pile after a base scores. However, it does not have Special attached to it in anyway ...

The playtest version of the card (which had a different name) was labeled Special. I assume that in the wording changes they made for publication, that "Special" was accidentally omitted.


Real question is how do I get to be a playtester for the next one? lol
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Charles Riggs
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So if Clyde's ability works with scoring a base (according to Bryan Stout), does this also imply that his ability kicks in when he gets destroyed or returned to the owners hand?

We had this issue last night when playing with CyperApes against Ninja's and Aliens.
 
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Jesse Bennett
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Any actions that were attached to that Clyde could be returned to your hand but any future actions lost from minions on that base would go to discard pile since Clyde 2.0 is no longer there to return them to your hand
 
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Travis Vandenberg
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Jessiah wrote:
Any actions that were attached to that Clyde could be returned to your hand but any future actions lost from minions on that base would go to discard pile since Clyde 2.0 is no longer there to return them to your hand


Why do you say this this? It's been ruled that actions that are no longer attached go to the discard pile. And since Clyde 2.0 isn't there anymore to say otherwise, they're not going to go back to your hand.
 
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Jesse Bennett
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I guess I was going off from what was posted earlier that his ability kicked in when a base scored. If is ability kicked in when him and actions were discarded for a base scoring why would it not work when he is destroyed and him and his actions are sent to the discard pile. I guess all I was saying is it should work in both cases or neither case. I guess my own opinion would be that the cards are being discarded and Clyde 2.0 has an ongoing ability at the same time so who ever's turn it is can decided the order. Clyde gone first and can not use his ongoing or the actions are discarded first and he can use it.
 
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Don Riddle
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whether Clyde is destroyed or his Base scores, you WILL get actions played on him back into your hand, (as well as other actions on fellow minions in the case of the Base scoring).
DISCARDED means "sent to the discard pile" not "in the discard pile" meaning that Clyde is still working and sees and cares about other cards on his way to the discard pile.
that's all you need to know to make sense of this, and is why AEG didn't feel the need to be more explicit.
 
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Mark Turner
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riddle13 wrote:
whether Clyde is destroyed or his Base scores, you WILL get actions played on him back into your hand, (as well as other actions on fellow minions in the case of the Base scoring).
DISCARDED means "sent to the discard pile" not "in the discard pile" meaning that Clyde is still working and sees and cares about other cards on his way to the discard pile.
that's all you need to know to make sense of this, and is why AEG didn't feel the need to be more explicit.


From what I see here it's clear. After a base is smashed, Clyde's power applies both to actions on him, and on other minions at that base.

I hope this one is settled now!
 
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In which case, from what i have read here, If Clyde has "Flying Monkey" and the base scores, he moves after scoing, FM goes to discard but Clyde returns it to player hand (for play next turn?)
My question here is can Clyde take any other actions on him when he moves (using Flying Monkey) cos if he has the "+2 per action" and Shielding (and possibly others) he becomes very powerful and can stay in play almost for ever?
 
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Don Riddle
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Of course he takes any actions attached to him with him when he moves. They are attached to him. He is meant to be a powerful card IF you have good actions to play on him. But, as with any card in Smash Up, there are still many ways to deal with a pumped up Clyde.
 
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