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Subject: Rebel in town rss

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Costas Taliadoros
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If a citizen occupying a town becomes a rebel, is there a way for other players to take over the town?
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Mathieu Lapenna
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It said page 8 of the rulebook that any rebel can't participate to any actions and can't use or control any construction on the board. So you just have to take the first action, migrates one of your citizen to the city and throw away the rebel out.
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Costas Taliadoros
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Thank you very much.
 
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Rafael Castrequini
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SantosPapaya wrote:
It said page 8 of the rulebook that any rebel can't participate to any actions and can't use or control any construction on the board. So you just have to take the first action, migrates one of your citizen to the city and throw away the rebel out.


This is wrong.

The meeple on a town (mayor) can expel other rebels. But there is no way to expel a mayor.

Zolos wrote:
If a citizen occupying a town becomes a rebel, is there a way for other players to take over the town?

No.
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Costas Taliadoros
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Rafaelc wrote:
SantosPapaya wrote:
It said page 8 of the rulebook that any rebel can't participate to any actions and can't use or control any construction on the board. So you just have to take the first action, migrates one of your citizen to the city and throw away the rebel out.


This is wrong.

The meeple on a town (mayor) can expel other rebels. But there is no way to expel a mayor.

Zolos wrote:
If a citizen occupying a town becomes a rebel, is there a way for other players to take over the town?

No.


Oh!

Is there a way to finalise this conclusively?!
 
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Pas L
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Rafaelc wrote:
SantosPapaya wrote:
It said page 8 of the rulebook that any rebel can't participate to any actions and can't use or control any construction on the board. So you just have to take the first action, migrates one of your citizen to the city and throw away the rebel out.


This is wrong.

The meeple on a town (mayor) can expel other rebels. But there is no way to expel a mayor.

Zolos wrote:
If a citizen occupying a town becomes a rebel, is there a way for other players to take over the town?

No.


Yes, but as a rebel doesn't control a town can other players then move in to unoccupied ports and markets?

I would have thought yes.
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Jonathan Challis
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lamaros wrote:

Yes, but as a rebel doesn't control a town can other players then move in to unoccupied ports and markets?

I would have thought yes.


Yes.
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Cardboard-Nose
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Kelanen wrote:
lamaros wrote:

Yes, but as a rebel doesn't control a town can other players then move in to unoccupied ports and markets?

I would have thought yes.


Yes.


I'm assuming the same thing.
But I'm trying to wrap my head around this issue once and for all, because in other threads, people seem to interpret this differently.

So let me sum it up the way I understand it:
1. A rebel doesn't control a building, but still occupies it.
2. That means he cannot use the building, but prevents other players from entering it.
3. An active citizen in a town controls the town, which means he controls the buildings around the town as well.
4. Controlling a building always includes occupying it, therefore an active citizen also occupies the buildings around the town.
(this list is getting too long..)
5. When a citizen in a town becomes a rebel, he loses control over the town and the other buildings, but still occupies the town, and only the town.
6. The other buildings are now neither controlled nor occupied, which means anyone can enter them.

Or does the rebel in fact occupy the town including the other buildings, because the buildings are thematically inside the city? Also the rules (page 12) say "An active, non-engaged citizen can build a town, occupy it, and operate it." So a rebel cannot occupy it?

I'm not sure anymore. Any suggestions? gulp
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Peter Delmeby
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Matschmensch wrote:
Kelanen wrote:
lamaros wrote:

Yes, but as a rebel doesn't control a town can other players then move in to unoccupied ports and markets?

I would have thought yes.


Yes.


I'm assuming the same thing.
But I'm trying to wrap my head around this issue once and for all, because in other threads, people seem to interpret this differently.

So let me sum it up the way I understand it:
1. A rebel doesn't control a building, but still occupies it.
2. That means he cannot use the building, but prevents other players from entering it.
3. An active citizen in a town controls the town, which means he controls the buildings around the town as well.
4. Controlling a building always includes occupying it, therefore an active citizen also occupies the buildings around the town.
(this list is getting too long..)
5. When a citizen in a town becomes a rebel, he loses control over the town and the other buildings, but still occupies the town, and only the town.
6. The other buildings are now neither controlled nor occupied, which means anyone can enter them.

Or does the rebel in fact occupy the town including the other buildings, because the buildings are thematically inside the city? Also the rules (page 12) say "An active, non-engaged citizen can build a town, occupy it, and operate it." So a rebel cannot occupy it?

I'm not sure anymore. Any suggestions? gulp


Just gonna answer based on my interpretations :-D

1. The rebel is occupying the building.
2. Exactly.
3. Only if they're not already occupied.
4. I would say no. Occupying = being physically present.
5. He loses control for sure. Still noone can enter the town.
6. The other building are no longer controlled and can be entered. They were never "occupied" imo though, not that it makes any difference.

I guess you are very obsessed with what is occupied or not. In which scenarios is that of importance? The only things I can think of is if it is legal to enter a building, and whether or not it is reason enough to count it during scoring etc.
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Cardboard-Nose
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Yes, that's the exact situation: Is it legal to enter the buildings if the guy on the town becomes a rebel?

It is basically a question of how powerful towns are.
If it was legal, it would also strengthen the "siege" card from the expansion by a fair amount, as one could easily take over up to three buildings from an opponent in one single move.

That is also why I now tend to believe it's not legal, and that the rebel occupies the town including all buildings. But as I said, I can't find evidence supporting either option.

As for the scoring, it's perfectly clear: Rebels don't control buildings, therefore no victory points for the town and the attached buildings.
 
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Murr Rockstroh
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Matschmensch wrote:
Yes, that's the exact situation: Is it legal to enter the buildings if the guy on the town becomes a rebel?

Yes.

Page 12 of the rulebook states clearly:
A town gives the player control of the region on which it is placed as long as he has an active citizen on that town. Controlling a region means that the player controls all other buildings in the region - port, market, temple - even if he does not have active units engaged on the other buildings. The player can therefore benefit from the advantages provided by the port, market or temple located in the region as long as he controls the town. Opponents cannot take control of any port, market, or temple on that region.

Basically if you don't control the town, everything in blue does not apply anymore because you no longer control the town. The way you control the town is to have an active unit on it. An active unit is a unit that is not a rebel (see page 8 of the rules in the top left corner). Occupying it alone isn't what is important, occupying it with an active unit is what matters.
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Murr Rockstroh
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I tend to keep this reminder in the back of my mind when reading the rules to Christophe Boelinger games.

Chris Boelinger wrote:
About the rules in general
So just to say, that the rules are written almost as Magic keyword rulings are written. Checked and double checked and rewritten by JC, me, the playtesters from many different countries and in different languages. So those rules are to be taken very strictly word by word exactly like the Dungeon Twister or Earth Reborn rules. What you read is what it means, each word is important. Many words are keywords re-used on cards, rules and so on.
That doesn't mean it is 100% perfect and with nothing missing. Maybe I'll discover with a growing community that some rare situations are not explained, but I doubt there will be many... At least I hope so, cause we did everything we can to reach the most precise and concise rules (JC being even more perfectionnist than myself on that part

I hope I helped you with all your questions


Source of the quote https://boardgamegeek.com/article/10145996#10145996
 
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Cardboard-Nose
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Thanks for your comprehensive reply.

I get your point, but that paragraph you quoted was exactly what got me confused in the first place.

The part that says:
"Opponents cannot take control of any port, market, or temple on that region."

Are you sure this sentence belongs to the things that are only in effect if you are in control of the town? To me it Sounds more like a general rule about occupied towns.

I also know the quote by Mr Boelinger, but if one is meant to read the rules this literally, then I think the above sentence is not phrased explicitly enough.
 
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Murr Rockstroh
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Matschmensch wrote:
Thanks for your comprehensive reply.

I get your point, but that paragraph you quoted was exactly what got me confused in the first place.

The part that says:
"Opponents cannot take control of any port, market, or temple on that region."

Are you sure this sentence belongs to the things that are only in effect if you are in control of the town? To me it Sounds more like a general rule about occupied towns.

I also know the quote by Mr Boelinger, but if one is meant to read the rules this literally, then I think the above sentence is not phrased explicitly enough.

The way I read it, yes that sentence belongs to the rest of it, because it's all in a single paragraph.
 
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Cardboard-Nose
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I guess I just wanted the other version to be true, but you're right after all. Thanks again for pointing it out.

At least the German translator interpreted it the same way, because her sentence says:
"In this situation, other players cannot take control over markets, harbors, or temples in that region."

Ok, then the siege card is way too cheap for what it does IMO..
 
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