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Subject: Information polling again rss

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charles skrobis
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So the first one is more of a what card upgrades are more important then any other.

So the first one is resources, from flagships to command tokens to the fighters. Plenty of free actions, options, can fix crits, add re-rolls, and can even be attached to no ship so that it doesn't go away until you fully defeat your opponent.

Captains, with the free action captains, firing initiative, passive abilities, and so on. (From Piccard, to Worf, to the romulan commander.)

The ships themselves, so that maneuvering, primary weapon, action bar, upgrade slots, and such all define the game more then any other aspect. (From the Jem'haddar Battleship, to the Koranak, to the 5th wing patrol ship, and so on.)

Or is it other. (Secondary weapons, crew, tech, elite talents, etc.)

Poll
Which is the most important to fleet builds in general?
Resources
Captains
Ships
Other
      89 answers
Poll created by charles_skrobis


Next is what is most important to each ship as far as base stats for why people choose ships now.

High primary weapon, like with Keldons, Vorchas, etc as compared to things like the Equinox.

High defense, like with cloaked romulans or Jem'haddar battleship, as compared to the TOS enterprise or the D7.

Good firing arcs, like with the Excelsior and reliant class, as compared to every Romulan ship ever so far, half the klingons and dominion too, as well as the Sutherland.

Maneuvering, great maneuvering options like with the Romulan science vessel, Vo, Miranda class, 5th wing, etc, as compared to stuff like the Kraxon.

Upgrade slots, like how most Fed ships, and a few others have 5+ slots with good variance in options, while things like the Raptor class, 5th wing patrol ship and Science vessel have 3 or less, and most klingons just have 4 slots.

Poll
Which is most important to a ship?
High primary weapon
High Defense
Firing arcs
Maneuvering
Upgrade slots
      85 answers
Poll created by charles_skrobis


Hopefully this should be an interesting look into the current thought going on with the game for the time being.
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Erin OConnor
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Things are not quite so cut and dry as the questions would ask.

for instance the ship is probably the most important but how it synergizes with the captain (as well as upgrades) are also important factors. The Equinox in and of itself is not particularly great BUT with the proper resource, captain and upgrades is becomes a very tough very potent attack ship.

Maneuverability is really important however if you took a ship like the Dominion Battleship and give it Reliant firing arcs its quite a different story. As one might say dead ships don't maneuver.
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Nova Cat
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Every fleet starts with the ships. They are the core of any build. Even using the Praetus as a Donatra-chariot is ship-centric: you use the Praetus because of its unique combination of low-cost, high-defense, in the right faction, with room for two cloaked mines... AND Donatra boosts the stats of allied ships, not allied crew/captains.

So I answered that ships are the most important. You NEED good ships to have a good fleet.

The other question is a little more nebulous. Is attack-stat more valuable than firing arc? Not if the arc makes the difference between firing and not firing. I think the best ships have a good balance of all the important features, but which one is most important depends on the specific circumstance, and the ship's role in your fleet.
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charles skrobis
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Well, one way to look at it is what do you tend to see in builds more often then not.

So when most people who start talking about frustration for mixed faction have brought up piccard in every fleet, even if he's out of faction, is this piccard as a captain creating more of an impact no matter the ship he's on, or him being moved to ships that are better then the ones he'd normally get and just adding on a minor buff comparitively.

Do combos with crazy effects such as conditional surrender and weyoun 6, varel with centurions, and so on, define more of what people build towards than things like resources. (Kind of seeing the flagship carry most resources for builds now, then fighters, then the rest have basically disappeared comparatively.)

Resource compared to ships, cause a good ship with a flag ship or command tokens can be a bit more effective, but resources can also define ships such as giving the Vo a weapon slot to use additional weapons array or plasma torpedoes.

And so on with the examples for the numerous comparisons I can make, I know each part has it's time to shine based on the variety of builds, but some tend to see more use then others when playing people in my area and reading builds posted on other threads. So it's really more a question of what people see defining things the most of all possibilities right now.

The second question I was a bit more sketchy on how to word, but I more wanted to know what people look for when choosing their ships more or less. A good example goes back to a thread where someone pointed out that they weren't seeing much of the enterprise-d being used, while I see the enterprise-d, the excellsior, and the defiant at decent regularity. So it's somewhat more for the mentality behind why each one, and this is before I even start comparing things like whether to fly a Battleship or a keldon, because attack wise their 1 die apart but 10 fleet points of difference, but also 5 total health and an agility, and so on for all the differences.

So I suppose I kind of want to look at more of the mentality behind a look of current choices and decision for most of the builds people do now adays.

(I'm currently a big fan of the battleship, and have managed to make pretty good use of it so far, even with its horrible turns, but just as well I can switch over to the Flagship somraw, which I'll admit is being defined by the klingon flagship giving it cloaking to have 6 dice of defense with a conversion of 2 battle station on every defense roll. But at the end of the day, good captains always seem to mean so much more in the end then any other factor, just based on how everything I see has a free action captain or the romulan commander, and they're almost to the point where it hurts not to use them.)
 
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Scott Pitner
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I can understand why a lot of people are responding with primary weapon in the second question, but I just can't support that because of the 4th Division Battleship. It has the highest primary attack, yet I don't really want to use it because it can't maneuver for squat. So I'd rather go with something more maneuverable first and then look at PWV. It looks like a lot of other people agree with going maneuvers first. I almost went upgrade slots first, but again - you can run a pretty strong 3 Valdore or 3 Negh'Var/Vor'Cha with almost no upgrades just as effectively as many other builds. That's why I picked maneuvers overall.

For the first question it felt pretty simple that it all starts with the Ships and everything gets filled in later. I have had moments where it was "I want to use this tech upgrade. What ships will let me run this tech upgrade?" and started eliminating choices from there.
 
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Eric B.
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stpitner wrote:
I can understand why a lot of people are responding with primary weapon in the second question, but I just can't support that because of the 4th Division Battleship. It has the highest primary attack, yet I don't really want to use it because it can't maneuver for squat.



I think this is in part true, but here's why I chose Primary Attack:

Having a high attack value is a necessary but not sufficient condition on being a competitive ship within a build. It's not sufficient, because having only high attack is not enough, as you note with the battleships. But none of the other features listed seem like necessary or sufficient conditions, so high attack wins.

But, having high attack along with other characteristics such as maneuverability (e.g. Vorcha's, Nehg'vars, Valdores) or great firing arcs (e.g. Cardassian ships, Enterprise-D) is really the key.


Ships with the other features of defense, maneuverability, or great firing arcs aren't really competitive because they can't land reliable damage (or else they require secondary weapons that help them approach a high attack value). It's why you don't see many of the ships in the 16-25pt range getting used in many competitive squads. Fancy flying and defense is only worth so much if you can't connect for damage.
 
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Bob Anderson
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Maneuverability is the prime factor in the equation.

Can your ship do 90% turns?
Can your ship do a come about?
Can your ship do a reverse?

I need these maneuvers in the toolbox to change the engagement from a simple joust to something more of a battle of finesse. With the current buckets of dice meta that throws 8 attack dice shots, I need to find a way out of primary fire arc to force a non shot, or a dorsal array shot.

Add in the added maneuverability of upgrades like Engage, or actions like Sensor Echo and you can really alter the battlefield in your favor.
 
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Matt Hawke
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I am not smart enough to figure out how, but I would think that a second pass design at this game would change how point values are given. The four stats are probably not equal and there isn't an increased cost for higher values as you might expect.

I'd think the cost of going from 0 - 1 attack to be lower than the cost of going from 4 - 5 attack.

I'd think the cost of going from 0 - 1 attack to be different than the cost of going from 0 - 1 defense.
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Jon NyD

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I answered captains, then maneuvering for these reasons:

Without extreme cases, sometime try the 3 9's that work together as captains - Kirk Picard and GenKhan. I tried them on a dominion fleet (bugs aren't phenominal) and won the day. I don't build based around ships, I build based around the synergy between ships and captains, and usually choose the captians first. There are times when I build around ships first, but not as often as when I pick up a captain first and ask how he fits into the equation.

Again, throwing out extreme cases, I say maneuvering is going to be what I think is the most important ship stat. Yeah, the battleship has the highest dice, but the only way I could see making it work (see the admiral's thread) was by giving it cloak for sensor echo and the Cochrane decel - all to give it better maneuvering. Remove the extreme cases - the little romulan ships with white come abouts - and look at what you have left. Anything with white turns and cloaking and/or comeabout is going to be at the top of that list. I only throw out the small ships because their obvious function is support, not primary ships. We only have a handful of ships that go 5, and transwarp can be given to almost every other ship to get it to a 6 forward.
 
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Jared Voshall
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The answer to both of these questions is really, it depends. While the ships are the backbone of every fleet, the Captains are the ones that provide the heart of the fleet, as it were. The resources and other upgrades can help provide a focus to the fleet that can shape and change where you go with it, but the resource tends to be a relatively small part of the build.

As for ship-to-ship - once again, it depends. No matter how well the ship maneuvers and how much damage it can take before dropping, it means nothing if you cannot deliver damage as well - unless you're running a support ship, which can get away with a low attack on, as its entire purpose is to buff your other ships. If it's my main ship, or one of two mains that I'm running, I want high defenses as well as a high attack (whether from Primary Weapon or from Secondary weapons), while a secondary attacker, either upgrades or Primary Weapon becomes more important.
 
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charles skrobis
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I feel this has been long enough before I presented this.

So based on how most people think toward ship builds now adays, given the borg will be out in a month and a half, I'm waiting to analyze them with what's currently out and thought of for current builds.

The best way to put it is that since maneuvering is the most important to ships according to this, you could say that maneuver dials could make or break the borg. The second highest seems to indicate captains and attack power, so I can only imagine what they have to manage that aspect.
 
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