Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
31 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Descent: Journeys in the Dark» Forums » General

Subject: Descent 2.0 vs 1.0? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Joseph Fisher
United States
Carrollton
TX
flag msg tools
http://d6desperados.com
badge
Mooo!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Dice Tower Showdown is looking for Descent enthusiasts to come on the show and have a friendly debate over which is better...Descent: Journeys in the Dark or Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)!


Send us an e-mail to dicetowershowdown@gmail.com
Include what topic(s) and which side.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jacob Gowans
United States
OMAHA
NE
flag msg tools
LONG LIVE SAMMY!
badge
Have you read the Psion series?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think a knowledgeable Descent 1E player should be able to own this argument.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Fisher
United States
Carrollton
TX
flag msg tools
http://d6desperados.com
badge
Mooo!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
C'mon, they need you!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick G.
United States
Glenshaw
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Does your religion have lightsabers? Nope? Didn't think so.
badge
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals." Agent K. Oh my what he would think of people had he known about what the internet would become.....
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Figures... has to be this week. I am completely swamped at with work.... @#&($@#&*$(@#$*(@#$
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Fisher
United States
Carrollton
TX
flag msg tools
http://d6desperados.com
badge
Mooo!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
corkysru wrote:
Figures... has to be this week. I am completely swamped at with work.... @#&($@#&*$(@#$*(@#$


Don't panic! I am just trying to get people coordinated. We record on Monday, March 31.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick G.
United States
Glenshaw
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Does your religion have lightsabers? Nope? Didn't think so.
badge
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals." Agent K. Oh my what he would think of people had he known about what the internet would become.....
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Will you be reading from emails and such or would such a person need a webcam?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jacob Gowans
United States
OMAHA
NE
flag msg tools
LONG LIVE SAMMY!
badge
Have you read the Psion series?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, I'd be happy to contribute to the discussion via emailing talking points, but I have no time to record anything on a Monday.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Fisher
United States
Carrollton
TX
flag msg tools
http://d6desperados.com
badge
Mooo!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
corkysru wrote:
Will you be reading from emails and such or would such a person need a webcam?


You just need about 40 minutes or so on a Monday evening, a computer with Skype (audio only) and Audacity installed.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Frank Franco
Australia
flag msg tools
Avatar
Do I need to pick a side or can I just rumble with both?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark McG
Australia
Penshurst
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Mr Skeletor wrote:
Do I need to pick a side or can I just rumble with both?


you can only rumble with Descent 1, with Descent 2 you have to race!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
N F
United States
Greenwood
Indiana
flag msg tools
I have played a lot of D1 and only 4 games of D2. I like both games. To quantify D2, if there is such a possibility, I would like to talk about D1 and Mice & Mystics…

D1 is an epic epic dungeon crawl. It contains in it’s gigantic box a lot of treasure, monsters, weapons, armor, skills, abilities, heroes with recognizable differences in armor/defense(zing!) I could go on, but we all know Descent.

Mice & Mystics is a story driving very light dungeon-ish adventure game rated for children 7 and up. (many people on the forums play with their 5 year olds) It is a co-op vs the game and no Overlord. Spawns are kept low and controlled by the game. There is minimal loot or character upgrading. There is a small built in campaign.

On a scale comparing D2 to these two games with 10 being more like Descent and 1 being more like M&M, I would rate D2 as a 3. It just sneaks a couple points up from the 7 year old kid’s adventure game.

Bottom line___ (for me). D2 should have just been called something else. It is a different game. I like Descent, I like M&M, and I like D2. However, I don’t own D2 and I like it the least of the three as I feel it’s stands in no man’s land. I think I would have liked D2 a lot more if it was a new game and not a new “edition”. As Descent, it disappoints me. As some new board game my friend happens to bring over, I would think it was a pretty cool game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick G.
United States
Glenshaw
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Does your religion have lightsabers? Nope? Didn't think so.
badge
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals." Agent K. Oh my what he would think of people had he known about what the internet would become.....
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
When is the deadline for submitting emails?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
duhtch
United States
Colorado
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Relampagos wrote:
I have played a lot of D1 and only 4 games of D2. I like both games. To quantify D2, if there is such a possibility, I would like to talk about D1 and Mice & Mystics…

D1 is an epic epic dungeon crawl. It contains in it’s gigantic box a lot of treasure, monsters, weapons, armor, skills, abilities, heroes with recognizable differences in armor/defense(zing!) I could go on, but we all know Descent.

Mice & Mystics is a story driving very light dungeon-ish adventure game rated for children 7 and up. (many people on the forums play with their 5 year olds) It is a co-op vs the game and no Overlord. Spawns are kept low and controlled by the game. There is minimal loot or character upgrading. There is a small built in campaign.

On a scale comparing D2 to these two games with 10 being more like Descent and 1 being more like M&M, I would rate D2 as a 3. It just sneaks a couple points up from the 7 year old kid’s adventure game.

Bottom line___ (for me). D2 should have just been called something else. It is a different game. I like Descent, I like M&M, and I like D2. However, I don’t own D2 and I like it the least of the three as I feel it’s stands in no man’s land. I think I would have liked D2 a lot more if it was a new game and not a new “edition”. As Descent, it disappoints me. As some new board game my friend happens to bring over, I would think it was a pretty cool game.


Yeah, I like to break it down as Chess vs Checkers. Both great games on their own, but come on, who wants to play Checkers as an adult with a brain, unless you are playing with your kids?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Retired Hurt

Brussels
Unspecified
msg tools
Don't underestimate checkers. They look easier because you can get more calculation depth (fewer possible moves at any given moment), but that's precisely what makes them so difficult at a higher level.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick G.
United States
Glenshaw
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Does your religion have lightsabers? Nope? Didn't think so.
badge
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals." Agent K. Oh my what he would think of people had he known about what the internet would become.....
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
duhtch wrote:
Relampagos wrote:
I have played a lot of D1 and only 4 games of D2. I like both games. To quantify D2, if there is such a possibility, I would like to talk about D1 and Mice & Mystics…

D1 is an epic epic dungeon crawl. It contains in it’s gigantic box a lot of treasure, monsters, weapons, armor, skills, abilities, heroes with recognizable differences in armor/defense(zing!) I could go on, but we all know Descent.

Mice & Mystics is a story driving very light dungeon-ish adventure game rated for children 7 and up. (many people on the forums play with their 5 year olds) It is a co-op vs the game and no Overlord. Spawns are kept low and controlled by the game. There is minimal loot or character upgrading. There is a small built in campaign.

On a scale comparing D2 to these two games with 10 being more like Descent and 1 being more like M&M, I would rate D2 as a 3. It just sneaks a couple points up from the 7 year old kid’s adventure game.

Bottom line___ (for me). D2 should have just been called something else. It is a different game. I like Descent, I like M&M, and I like D2. However, I don’t own D2 and I like it the least of the three as I feel it’s stands in no man’s land. I think I would have liked D2 a lot more if it was a new game and not a new “edition”. As Descent, it disappoints me. As some new board game my friend happens to bring over, I would think it was a pretty cool game.


Yeah, I like to break it down as Chess vs Checkers. Both great games on their own, but come on, who wants to play Checkers as an adult with a brain, unless you are playing with your kids?

I think that's a bad analogy.. because who wants to play adult chessmemory? (Which is what chess is.. do I remember the proper counter to his move? Does he remember the counter to that?).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Fisher
United States
Carrollton
TX
flag msg tools
http://d6desperados.com
badge
Mooo!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
corkysru wrote:
When is the deadline for submitting emails?


No deadline. We will run this segment whenever it fills. Still spots open!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
N F
United States
Greenwood
Indiana
flag msg tools
Wow! How does anyone say a game of chess is "memory"? Chess is more like real world military strategy. It's like saying that Patton was good at winning battles because of memory. "Oh, they just shot three volleys from twenty tanks, I remember exactly how to counter that." - Patton (Not)

Chess= Strategy. Tactics. Risk vs Reward. Calculated Losses. Thinking many steps ahead. Ability to predict. Ability to adjust constantly.

ps- no offense... just having fun Patrick.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
duhtch
United States
Colorado
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
I think at the highest levels, it becomes memory. Amateur and lower (everyone else), it is a strategy game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
joel siragher
United States
silver spring
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Heres a classic toatmaster presentation and debate.

D1 is clearly better than D2, but
D2 is clearly better than D1...
so having said... I dont need to participate in the video.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick G.
United States
Glenshaw
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Does your religion have lightsabers? Nope? Didn't think so.
badge
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals." Agent K. Oh my what he would think of people had he known about what the internet would become.....
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Relampagos wrote:
Wow! How does anyone say a game of chess is "memory"? Chess is more like real world military strategy. It's like saying that Patton was good at winning battles because of memory. "Oh, they just shot three volleys from twenty tanks, I remember exactly how to counter that." - Patton (Not)

Chess= Strategy. Tactics. Risk vs Reward. Calculated Losses. Thinking many steps ahead. Ability to predict. Ability to adjust constantly.

ps- no offense... just having fun Patrick.

First lets address the concept of your statement:
You are completely wrong. I don't mean to be that harsh or offensive. But it's true.

There is nothing random to chess, nothing hidden, the only risk is if your opponent knows the proper response to your move.

There is nothing that allows for a valiant last stand to pay off. There is no mechanic to sneak in a trick. There is no bluffing. There is morale to rally to get those 5 troops to hold off the enemy until reinforcements arrive.

Read this:http://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/the-effects-of-speed-on-skilled-chess-performance
Then google for other articles saying the same thing.

Blitz chess is far more demanding and less about memory based sheerly on the speed required. Normal chess however allows great players to simply remember the proper response and act.

You want a challenge? Try a game where you can't prepare for everything.


Now lets address the insult you just paid to Patton:
Chess is nothing like real world military strategy.
Being good(or great) at chess is NOTHING compared to being a master of warfare like he was. That takes experience, guts and good men. It takes an ability to muster the best out of people when it's the worst of times. I could go on but I think you get the point.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick G.
United States
Glenshaw
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Does your religion have lightsabers? Nope? Didn't think so.
badge
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals." Agent K. Oh my what he would think of people had he known about what the internet would become.....
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
duhtch wrote:
I think at the highest levels, it becomes memory. Amateur and lower (everyone else), it is a strategy game.

That would have been the quick way for me to respond. Should have went that route. haha.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
duhtch
United States
Colorado
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
corkysru wrote:
duhtch wrote:
I think at the highest levels, it becomes memory. Amateur and lower (everyone else), it is a strategy game.

That would have been the quick way for me to respond. Should have went that route. haha.


It's okay Corkysru, I forgive you whistle
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
N F
United States
Greenwood
Indiana
flag msg tools
Interesting conversation, but it’s kind of lost it’s meaning as a reference to Descent in any way. Lol

I read that link and it is interesting, however, it is an oversimplification for the top few players in the world, and just not accurate at all for the other 99% of people who play chess. For those 99% it is most definitely not a memory game. Even when talking about the Grand Masters, how do they remember the “proper response”? At one point in their career, they learned, strategized, tested tactics, made mistakes, and discovered the correct response. The fact that they can remember the response later on does not change a strategic and tactical game into a memory game as you are stating. Yes, memory is part of it.

By your reasoning, every game is a memory game. If five people dedicated their lives to Descent and played each quest hundreds of time, then they could respond to moves by remembering the proper responses. (see how I brought it back to Descent) I know there is "random" chance in Descent, but you could just memorize the zillions of variables, because chess has that many variables. However, I could see D2 being more easily memorized than D1.

Now why would you go and say I insulted Patton? That’s not nice. The comparison was about tactics and strategy. Obviously, there is more to war. And obviously, there is more to chess than memory.

Here is a response on the forum that you linked to:
“In this book, the authors ask various chess masters about various topics. one of the topics is memory. The masters are asked how important is memory to chess and most of the answers say that memory is important but not as important as having an imagination getting a sense of the position.

Title How to Get Better at Chess: Chess Masters on Their Art
Authors Larry Evans, Jeremy Silman, Betty Roberts
Contributors Jeremy Silman, Betty Roberts”


To sum it all up, here are some quotes about chess…

"The game of chess. Supposedly men made it up, and it's about war and men and the ravages and the bravery and the genius of commanding and moving pieces and ... No. It's marriage. The Queen moves anywhere she wants."
BILL COSBY, Far from Finished

"The Game of Chess is not merely an idle amusement; several very valuable qualities of the mind, useful in the course of human life, are to be acquired and strengthened by it, so as to become habits ready on all occasions; for life is a kind of Chess, in which we have often points to gain, and competitors or adversaries to contend with, and in which there is a vast variety of good and ill events, that are, in some degree, the effect of prudence, or the want of it. By playing at Chess then, we may learn: 1st, Foresight, which looks a little into futurity, and considers the consequences that may attend an action ... 2nd, Circumspection, which surveys the whole Chess-board, or scene of action: - the relation of the several Pieces, and their situations; ... 3rd, Caution, not to make our moves too hastily."
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, "The Morals of Chess"

"Check and mate! Now king me!"
HOMER SIMPSON, The Simpsons

The final quote proves my point. I rest my case.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Retired Hurt

Brussels
Unspecified
msg tools
Just tell me, Patrick, if Chess only needs memory and mechanical responses, how is it that computers still struggle to beat the best players ? Also, why are top players trying new moves in big championships ? And why do they need hours to decide on their moves ?

Fact is, because there are so many moves and positions possible (about one hundred billion positions after 10 moves from each player), you can't have seen all of them before, even if you played all your life. So you have to resort to other tools, which are (since there is no chance involved) of strategical and tactical nature, plus some psychological aspects.

And if you think there is no place for bluffing ... well, you never understood the game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick G.
United States
Glenshaw
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Does your religion have lightsabers? Nope? Didn't think so.
badge
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals." Agent K. Oh my what he would think of people had he known about what the internet would become.....
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Merrimac wrote:
Just tell me, Patrick, if Chess only needs memory and mechanical responses, how is it that computers still struggle to beat the best players ? Also, why are top players trying new moves in big championships ? And why do they need hours to decide on their moves ?

Fact is, because there are so many moves and positions possible (about one hundred billion positions after 10 moves from each player), you can't have seen all of them before, even if you played all your life. So you have to resort to other tools, which are (since there is no chance involved) of strategical and tactical nature, plus some psychological aspects.

And if you think there is no place for bluffing ... well, you never understood the game.


Why do top players try new moves? Because that's what top players do. In any game.

Forgive my ignorance on this but when was the last time a computer programmed to play chess played against a top player? It has been a while if I remember correctly.

As for bluffing?
Bluff: n: attempt to deceive someone into believing that one can or will do something.
Bluff: v: try to deceive someone as to one's abilities or intentions.

I guess there is some room for bluffing... but not much. There is no hidden information. Hidden information is really needed for good bluffs.


There is much more strategy, bluffing and enjoyment in a bad game of Magic: the gathering.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.