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Marvel Dice Masters: Avengers vs. X-Men» Forums » Rules

Subject: Tournament Rules - start player rss

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Kevin Warrender
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Other than what is in the rule book, I assume some official tournament rules document will eventually come out?

And in that, should there be an official way to determine start player other than random?

I was thinking of two comparisons that could be made between teams:

1) each player's total character card cost
2) each player's "max dice per card" total

The theory here would be either 1) whoever brings the higher total of this number is going to have to spend more energy to get his characters in play, and should therefore be given the choice of who goes first. Or 2) whoever brings the higher total of max dice probably has "weaker" cards overall (my theory is the 'better' the card, the less max dice it allows), and should therefore be given the choice of who goes first.

1) is probably an easier concept though.

Still, I'm curious if there will be anything official.

I did see they have the draft format rules in place, which make sense.



 
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Bryan Ruhe
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1 will work better anyway, I think, as the great majority of the cards will be "Max: 4" with few exceptions.
 
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Matt Mansell
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Determining randomly (such as rolling) should be just fine. Now, whether the highest roll goes first or chooses, could be an interesting difference.
 
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Alex Watson
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I appreciate this is an old post, but rewarding people who play 'weak' cards or go for high costing cards by letting them go first is not a good idea. People should take into account a good balance of costs and dice and this adds the skill to the team building element of the game. As has been stated the best (and fairest) way is a random dice roll. What is lacking is a balance on the benefit of going first. As with most games going first leads to missing a draw or something similar. Possibly one way to do this is to have no re-roll on the first turn of the player who goes first, but that might be too much of a disadvantage.
 
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Sias Mey
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Yeah, going first is difficult to balance in DM.

The problem turn is usually turn 3, not turn 1. And getting to be the first to use whatever you got in turn 1 and 2.

No Reroll is not a good idea, since its quite random. A good first roll as first player will be just as good as always, a bad one might be a death sentence.

maybe, 1 less die on first turn .... but.. even that can be a huge problem. Maybe, 1 less die +1 generic energy. This will essentially mess with the bag refill timings and what you get during those bag refills.

But... like I said, tricky.
 
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Tim Price
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I like the Hearthstone answer of giving the player that goes second one extra mana or one generic energy in this case.
 
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Sias Mey
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Even in a game as simple as Hearthstone I have seen that fix be used to fairly broken effect.

And Hearthstone doesnt have any of the additional considerations of how quickly your bag might cycle or how much maximum buying power you might have.

1 generic energy extra for player two would mean she-hulk or nova on turn 1 fairly often. Or a Human torch and a single use of PXG.

Thats a little bit over the top.
 
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Jared Wood
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ChioZA wrote:
Even in a game as simple as Hearthstone I have seen that fix be used to fairly broken effect.

And Hearthstone doesnt have any of the additional considerations of how quickly your bag might cycle or how much maximum buying power you might have.

For what its worth, the first player advantage isn't worth much in Hearthstone - I haven't seen recent stats, but I know at most they saw something like ~53% win rate for the player going first across the game as a whole. If you scaled down to professional levels of play, it was more like ~50.5%.

ChioZA wrote:
1 generic energy extra for player two would mean she-hulk or nova on turn 1 fairly often. Or a Human torch and a single use of PXG.

Thats a little bit over the top.

Agreed.

I almost wonder if a better balancing mechanic would be something like increased life totals or unable to use globals on your first turn. We're seeing more and more globals designed around ramp (Silver Surfer, PXG, Blue Eyes reduces the cost of one your purchases, there's a new basic action with Silver Surfer's global, minus the damage dealt). Unable to access them on your first turn might be a possible fix if first player advantage exists.
 
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Sias Mey
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Thats an interesting idea...

The most difficult part about analysing DM for this kind of thing is that most teams will actually have a different buy path for going first than for going second.

This means that its self regulates into a aggresive or a countering/defensive strat. Which should mess with the numbers.

If both players stuck to their primary aggro gameplan the first player advantage would probably be quite large. But .. thats not what happens.

Do we have any idea of how big first player advantage post Gobby dominance actually is?
 
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Jared Wood
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ChioZA wrote:
Do we have any idea of how big first player advantage post Gobby dominance actually is?

We're not even sure if first player advantage exists currently. One can assume so, but we have no real hard data. Who goes first in a match isn't recorded, and even if an individual started tracking their results (or even the results of their local OP events), there's a lot of factors that could play into it such as skill level, squad construction, etc.

I'd really like to see someone heavily track what goes on at Nationals/Worlds for Dice Masters and see if first player advantage exists. In theory, those competing in the Top 16 and higher will be the best players skill-wise, so they should be pretty balanced against once another.
 
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Sias Mey
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Hmmm, that sounds right.

There was definite first player advantage in the heyday of gobby and tsarina in every team. since you could actually lose the game on turn 4 fairly consistantly.

now though .... yeah.. not so sure there is any advantage.
 
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You can't handle the truth?
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ChioZA wrote:
Hmmm, that sounds right.

There was definite first player advantage in the heyday of gobby and tsarina in every team. since you could actually lose the game on turn 4 fairly consistantly.

now though .... yeah.. not so sure there is any advantage.
The first player advantage has grown with the existence of PXG.

It's turn 3 that is the issue, and PXG means that turn 3 bags have fewer sidekicks, and bigger characters than they ever had before.
 
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