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One Night Ultimate Werewolf» Forums » Variants

Subject: Allow abstention in voting rss

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Ian Toltz
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After a number of plays, I feel that without the minion there's just too much info and the game is too difficult for the werewolves to win.

The minion has a problem, though. If there are no werewolves, he's all but guaranteed a win. Even if the villagers realize there aren't any wolves, as long as he votes unpredictably, someone is pretty much guaranteed to have 2 fingers pointed at them and the minion will win.

My suggestion, then, is simple... Allow people to abstain from voting.

I can't think of anything broken by this. Can you?
 
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Pasi Ojala
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Asmor wrote:
After a number of plays, I feel that without the minion there's just too much info

What's the role set? Did you try leaving out Seer?
 
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Ian Toltz
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It varies, but I always play with seer, robber, and troublemaker, and can't imagine not using any of those.
 
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Donny Behne
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Asmor wrote:
It varies, but I always play with seer, robber, and troublemaker, and can't imagine not using any of those.


So you complain its too easy for the villagers to win but you leave in the most powerful roles for the villager team? Hmmmmm.....
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Ron Reaser
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kelann08 wrote:
Asmor wrote:
It varies, but I always play with seer, robber, and troublemaker, and can't imagine not using any of those.


So you complain its too easy for the villagers to win but you leave in the most powerful roles for the villager team? Hmmmmm.....

I know I personally couldn't imagine not using any of those specifically because they constitute the core gameplay of the game for the villager side. Sure, you could remove roles to make it easier for the wolves, but it would also be less fun.

I think the OP is looking for a solution to make it easier for the wolves while also maintaining the existing level of fun.

Asmor, one of the problems with allowing abstention is that it's hard to distinguish between an abstention and somebody who votes slowly (or votes after looking to see what everybody else does). A common solution is to allow a vote to "point up," indicating that they're not voting for anybody at the table but that they have, in fact, voted for nobody, rather than abstaining.

Here's another thread where this was discussed extensively. You might want to look through it, because plenty of people argued both for and against and it might help formulate your opinion.
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Pasi Ojala
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Bloodcinder wrote:
I think the OP is looking for a solution to make it easier for the wolves while also maintaining the existing level of fun.

1. Remove Seer, add Dobbelganger.
2. Remove Seer, add Drunk.
3-xx. Remove Seer, add XX.

Experiment!

The only core role needed is the Troublemaker. (And at least one Wolf.)

 
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Ian Toltz
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Bloodcinder wrote:
Here's another thread where this was discussed extensively. You might want to look through it, because plenty of people argued both for and against and it might help formulate your opinion.


Thanks for the link. Glad I'm not alone in my feelings on this...

The only compelling argument I saw in there for why requiring a vote is helpful was the case of a 3-player game with 2 wolves. I have no intention of playing this game with 3 players in the first place...

I will be adopting this rule in the future.
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Ron Reaser
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Asmor wrote:
I will be adopting this rule in the future.

It certainly can't hurt anything to try it out. Will you let me know how it goes? My group plays with mandatory voting (standard rule) because otherwise it's too easy for anybody to push for a "we don't know enough, don't lynch anybody" campaign each round, which usually means the werewolves win.

Also, what are you going to do about the case where EVERYBODY abstains? Isn't that a win for the Werewolves, since no Werewolf was killed?
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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Bloodcinder wrote:

Also, what are you going to do about the case where EVERYBODY abstains? Isn't that a win for the Werewolves, since no Werewolf was killed?


Yes. That's exactly like circle voting.

Effectively, the only difference between mass abstaining and circle voting is that a single rogue villager can mess up the latter, but cannot mess up the former.

Some people like the fact that a rogue villager can sometimes win the game by agreeing to a circle vote and not following through, but I find it annoying. The villagers should not win (or lose) because one person decided to go against the whole group.

If the overwhelming of players agree there should be no kill, then that's how it ought to be. This makes sense logically and thematically, and works just fine for the game.
 
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Ron Reaser
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So you count abstentions as votes for nobody, meaning that the abstentions can constitute the majority of the vote. Okay, that wasn't clear to me before. I see how that can deal with the "rogue villager" hypothetical.
 
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Clyde W
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It is surprisingly good with three.

Also ditch Seer and add Drunk or DGanger.
 
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Allan Clements
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I have been using abstaining instead of the circle vote for a while now and it works a lot better. Remember that players also need 2 votes to be lynched, if no one gets 2 votes, then that is peaceful village.
 
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Ian Toltz
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Bloodcinder wrote:
So you count abstentions as votes for nobody, meaning that the abstentions can constitute the majority of the vote. Okay, that wasn't clear to me before. I see how that can deal with the "rogue villager" hypothetical.


No.

Abstentions don't count for anything. If 4 people abstain and 2 vote to kill the same person, that person is killed.
 
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Ron Reaser
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Asmor wrote:
Bloodcinder wrote:
So you count abstentions as votes for nobody, meaning that the abstentions can constitute the majority of the vote. Okay, that wasn't clear to me before. I see how that can deal with the "rogue villager" hypothetical.


No.

Abstentions don't count for anything. If 4 people abstain and 2 vote to kill the same person, that person is killed.

Oh. Hmm... I don't think I like that, but thanks for correcting my misunderstanding.
 
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Xenothon Stelnicki
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I see an awful lot of talk, but what you need are better wolves. In my experience, the correct solution to that is simply play more games. If it's a real problem between now and then, include minion. Until everyone at the table has a couple games under their belts AS wolves, you're really just going through the motions. Everyone will just blurt out what they want very early on and the wolves will give up too easily. Once everyone appreciates the importance of timing and taking advantage of opportunities as a werewolf, everyone's game will improve dramatically...and that's where the real fun begins.

In the meantime, apart from adding minion, swap seer out for the drunk, swap out someone for a plain jane villager, don't use the masons- basically tip the advantage toward the wolves, but I definitely wouldn't suggest allowing players to opt out of the key decision in the game. You'll have n00bz that basically vote as told by whomever claims that authority but that social power is an important part of the game (and will be taken advantage of by a good wolf!!)! I wouldn't add DG as others have suggested until at least half the table is pretty damn good at being wolves. It's the best part of the game, but screws up everything if the players aren't very good.

For reference, at my tables the better players almost always win (whether werewolves or villagers; tanner is harder of course) unless it's one of those occasional games that has perfect information.
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Ron Reaser
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xen911 wrote:
I see an awful lot of talk, but what you need are better wolves. In my experience, the correct solution to that is simply play more games.

I concur. On that topic...

Turn on the Lone-Wolf Option; that's invaluable in games with a single wolf player.

Also, if you're the one running the game, as soon as you come up werewolf in a round, lie extravagantly, especially if there are any new players. It's not really fair to them, but it gets the point across fast that you have to be on your toes.

I played with a group this weekend who had not played with the Tanner before. After a few rounds, I told them I was going to include it and explained exactly how the role worked. That very round I was the lone werewolf, and as soon as the round started I placed the Tanner token on myself and sat back without saying a word. Even though another play knew I was not the Tanner (because that player was), and even though I had just explained how it worked, nobody could wrap their head around my strategy. So they lynched a villager and I won the round. It wasn't really fair, but even the new players who came up werewolves were better after that.

Make sure your group is trained to be bold when they are werewolves. Pick a story and stick with it. There really shouldn't be a need for abstentions, especially because the probability of a no-wolf game is low. Allowing abstentions errs too far on the side of caution, because it encourages noncommittal votes when the vast majority of games need commitment just on the off chance that the game is one of those rare no-wolf occurrences.
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Xenothon Stelnicki
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Bloodcinder wrote:
Turn on the Lone-Wolf Option; that's invaluable in games with a single wolf player.


Oh, yeah- to me, that's not optional. If you've playing without it, switch!
 
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Scott Dye
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Bloodcinder wrote:
Allowing abstentions errs too far on the side of caution, because it encourages noncommittal votes when the vast majority of games need commitment just on the off chance that the game is one of those rare no-wolf occurrences.


To me that is the essence of why I don't like this option. In trying to find a solution to one awkward scenario, you are making many other scenarios wishy-washy. If EVERYONE is seasoned at the game, then maybe this works out, but otherwise I think it makes timid players even more timid, by giving them an out in otherwise normal scenarios.
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Allan Clements
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No one has ever not voted in any of my games with that rule UNLESS the group consensus is there is no werewolf (which has often been wrong )

Just make sure to explain it properly, explain the normal rules, then just say that if you think there is no werewolf you can vote for no one.
 
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