Brian M
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Just realizing that, at the end of Fortress of the Stone Giants, our archers are still using the same weapons they picked up early on. The Deathbane Light Crossbow from the character pack is still the best ranged weapon in the game.

Any reason they've never added upgraded ranged weapons?
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aurax golden chubby dragon
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The Deathbane is OP! I agree

I was lucky enough to get it for Lem at the end of Burnt Offerings and during The Skinsaw Murders he destroyed all those pesky undeads like if they were annoying flies!

The Shock Longbow +1 and the Frost Longbow +1 are very nice too, and do not forget about the Venomous Dagger - probably the best ranged weapon in the game. Good ranged weapons are not very common indeed, but they are still there, waiting for you...

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Andrew Warner
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If naming conventions indicate anything, it looks like you'll have some stuff coming in Deck 5
Acidic Sling +3
Venomous Heavy Crossbow +2

And Deck 6
Flaming Icy Axe +1
Force Sling +3

And don't forget that Daggers use the Ranged skill too.

There isn't something of every nuanced kind of card in every deck. For instance, I think adventure deck 2 had no animal allies for Lini.
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Rauli Kettunen
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Also possible that Dex characters don't get as good a boon selection as their primary skill comes into play more often in non-combat checks than those with Str/Melee. No numbers to back this up, just a gut feeling based on barriers and such that I've run across, as well as closing checks for example.
 
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Brian M
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Quote:
The Shock Longbow +1 and the Frost Longbow +1 are very nice too, and do not forget about the Venomous Dagger - probably the best ranged weapon in the game. Good ranged weapons are not very common indeed, but they are still there, waiting for you...

The Shock and Frost are both D8+1, same as the Deathbane.
The Venomous Dagger is only good if you discard it, which makes it pretty worthless for most archers who don't have many weapon slots. (I've been using it for Sajan, but only because I haven't found a second D8+1 weapon).

Melee weapons are up to D10+3 by set 4, and there are several with good special abilities.

Quote:
If naming conventions indicate anything, it looks like you'll have some stuff coming in Deck 5
Acidic Sling +3
Venomous Heavy Crossbow +2

And Deck 6
Flaming Icy Axe +1
Force Sling +3

And don't forget that Daggers used the Ranged skill too.

Glad to know there will eventually be something.

Quote:
There isn't something of every nuanced kind of card in every deck. For instance, I think adventure deck 2 had no animal allies for Lini.

Yeah, but going 4 decks without an upgrade seems pretty extreme.
 
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Andrew Warner
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The Shock and Frost Longbow's second die is your strength die. So Merisiel would have a d8. Harsk and Sajan would only have a d6. But, if Harsk took the Sniper role and Sajan Zen Archer, the Shock and Frost Longbow each also have a discard option to add another die. And Sniper Harsk and Zen Archer Sajan can recharge that bow instead of discarding it. So they can get:

Dex/Ranged + Strength + 1d6 +1

For Harsk that would be d8 + 2d6 + 4 (plus whatever skill feats you might have in there).

For Sajan that would be d10 + 2d6 + 1.

So against non-undead, that beats the Deathbane Light Crossbow.
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Calthaer the Bard
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Adventure Deck 2 appears to be the "undead-heavy" adventure in the Rise of the Runelords set. As such, it makes a lot of sense for the Deathbane Light Crossbow to be present in the base set - you need to give players a chance to get something to give them the edge before they take on that challenge. Same thing as having Jakardros Sovark (IIRC - maybe Vale Temros, too, but I can't remember his powers exactly) in AD3 - you can get him in advance of taking down the giants in AD4.

In addition, the DLC card is a pretty good incentive for picking up the Character Add-On Pack.
 
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Just a correction. The Venomous Dagger is recharge to get the extra die not discard. It does have the 1d4+1 discard ability when using another weapon on the check like every dagger (1d4 usually) has. That is why it is perfect for Sajan.
 
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But, if Harsk took the Sniper role and Sajan Zen Archer, the Shock and Frost Longbow each also have a discard option to add another die.

This brings up a good point. My post title should maybe actually be "What has Paizo got against missile users OTHER than the archer?"

I haven't played Harsk; I have played Ezren, Sajan, Merisiel and Lem, all of whom use missile weapons but with only 1-2 weapons, I never use the discard effect.

I'm pretty sure Harsk hasn't ever used a discard ability on one of those either, but I haven't been playing him.

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Just a correction. The Venomous Dagger is recharge to get the extra die not discard.

Well, true, but a picky detail. The problem with tossing the dagger isn't the one point of damage, its no longer having a weapon in hand.
 
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269Hawkmoon wrote:
The Shock and Frost Longbow's second die is your strength die. So Merisiel would have a d8. Harsk and Sajan would only have a d6. But, if Harsk took the Sniper role and Sajan Zen Archer, the Shock and Frost Longbow each also have a discard option to add another die. And Sniper Harsk and Zen Archer Sajan can recharge that bow instead of discarding it. So they can get:

Dex/Ranged + Strength + 1d6 +1

For Harsk that would be d8 + 2d6 + 4 (plus whatever skill feats you might have in there).

For Sajan that would be d10 + 2d6 + 1.

So against non-undead, that beats the Deathbane Light Crossbow.


Harsk just has to become an axe thrower instead, the return throwing axe gives him d8 + d8 + 4.
 
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StormKnight wrote:
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[q]Just a correction. The Venomous Dagger is recharge to get the extra die not discard.

Well, true, but a picky detail. The problem with tossing the dagger isn't the one point of damage, its no longer having a weapon in hand.


That shouldn't be a problem for either Harsk, who has five weapons in in deck and cycles quickly, or Sajan, who is a cycling machine and can get buy just fine without a weapon in hand. In both cases, I find the venomous dagger a very nice upgrade and the best weapon currently in the game.

I am right with you on the lack of solid upgrades for Lem and Mer, getting a ranged loot item would have been a nice change of pace.
 
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...or Sajan, who is a cycling machine and can get buy just fine without a weapon in hand.

I'm not sure I've ever actually cycled Sajan's deck, and while you may get a weapon back at some point toward the end of the game, you'll be wasting more blessings and exploring at a bigger risk if you don't have a consistent weapon to use right away.
 
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StormKnight wrote:
I haven't played Harsk; I have played Ezren, Sajan, Merisiel and Lem, all of whom use missile weapons but with only 1-2 weapons, I never use the discard effect.


If you choose the Zen Archer role for Sajan, he can take a power to recharge instead of discard his weapons, and if he has no weapon, he still gets his base d10 and as many blessings as he wants. There's really no reason not to discard, if you go that route.
 
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Brian M
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If you choose the Zen Archer role for Sajan, he can take a power to recharge instead of discard his weapons, and if he has no weapon, he still gets his base d10 and as many blessings as he wants. There's really no reason not to discard, if you go that route.

Yes, there's a HUGE reason not to discard. If you discard, you no longer have a weapon in hand and you don't have the extra D8+1 on your next fights until you get it back.
 
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StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
If you choose the Zen Archer role for Sajan, he can take a power to recharge instead of discard his weapons, and if he has no weapon, he still gets his base d10 and as many blessings as he wants. There's really no reason not to discard, if you go that route.

Yes, there's a HUGE reason not to discard. If you discard, you no longer have a weapon in hand and you don't have the extra D8+1 on your next fights until you get it back.

No, chances are you get back a blessing instead, which you can recharge for d10 (or 2d10 for Blessings of Erastil).
Sajan really doesn't need a weapon - they are mostly only useful for multiple combat checks in the same round, otherwise a blessing is as good or better.
 
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No, chances are you get back a blessing instead, which you can recharge for d10 (or 2d10 for Blessings of Erastil).
Sajan really doesn't need a weapon - they are mostly only useful for multiple combat checks in the same round, otherwise a blessing is as good or better.




I can safely say that our style of play is very, very different.

You will need to be prepared for fights nearly every round. Spending blessings on the fights drains resources that you need to be exploring, even if you get them back later. Time is your greatest enemy.

You also want blessings to spend to help other characters and to help acquire items. You don't want to have to burn them all on fights.

Note: We've been playing almost entirely 4 character games. Based on other feedback, with fewer characters the time challenge is lower, and you may not need such a focus on extra explores.
 
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medwards wrote:
StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
If you choose the Zen Archer role for Sajan, he can take a power to recharge instead of discard his weapons, and if he has no weapon, he still gets his base d10 and as many blessings as he wants. There's really no reason not to discard, if you go that route.

Yes, there's a HUGE reason not to discard. If you discard, you no longer have a weapon in hand and you don't have the extra D8+1 on your next fights until you get it back.

No, chances are you get back a blessing instead, which you can recharge for d10 (or 2d10 for Blessings of Erastil).
Sajan really doesn't need a weapon - they are mostly only useful for multiple combat checks in the same round, otherwise a blessing is as good or better.
This becomes more true toward the end of the game when you have a greater proportion of Blessings in your Deck than other cards (assuming that you have been recharging for Combat, rather than discarding them for other Checks). But early in the game it is quite common for Sajan to have no Blessings in his hand. I like to have a Weapon, because it's always there - and I can still discard a Blessing if I have one and need it. Sajan + Shortbow or Sling is a great combo IMO.
 
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StormKnight wrote:
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No, chances are you get back a blessing instead, which you can recharge for d10 (or 2d10 for Blessings of Erastil).
Sajan really doesn't need a weapon - they are mostly only useful for multiple combat checks in the same round, otherwise a blessing is as good or better.




I can safely say that our style of play is very, very different.

You will need to be prepared for fights nearly every round. Spending blessings on the fights drains resources that you need to be exploring, even if you get them back later. Time is your greatest enemy.

You also want blessings to spend to help other characters and to help acquire items. You don't want to have to burn them all on fights.

Note: We've been playing almost entirely 4 character games. Based on other feedback, with fewer characters the time challenge is lower, and you may not need such a focus on extra explores.


Your correct when you say that some of us have very different play styles with Sajan. What I don't understand is why you choose to play Sajan with your play style. If you aren't aggressively cycling blessings and weapons, it seems like you Sajan becomes a less versatile and supportive version of Kyra (who can get far better use out of using blessings to explore and help allies).

In a four player game, you have sixty cards in the location deck and thirty turns. That means if each player takes their free explore plus one additional explore you should have far more explores than you need to win the game.

With Sajan in a four player game, you shouldn't be tossing more than one card a turn for an extra explore, and, when I have the choice, I almost always discard an ally instead over a blessing.

if you care, here is my Sajan through AP4
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Dexterity +3, Constitution +2
+2 Hand size, Magic unarmed attacks, recharge liquid boons, reduce non-combat damage by 1
1 Weapon, 6 Items, 3 Allies, 10 Blessings
Dagger of Venom +2, Emerald Codex, Holy Candle, Magic Spyglass, Potion of Healing, Potion of Healing, Sihedron medallion, Saber-tooth Tiger, Eagle, Soldier, x10 Blessings


That deck should empty out the bulk of its hand on every turn. You use one blessing or ally for an extra explore, and then cycle everything else. You have only two cards in the deck that stick around (the Eagle and the medallion), and I am thinking of phasing out both of those cards. I don't claim that its a perfect deck, but it is effective, and I remain confused about how you make Sajan work well without cycling.

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That deck should empty out the bulk of its hand on every turn.

Interesting concept. Not even close to something I've ever tried!
While I'll happily toss Sajan's blessings to win fights when needed since they just recharge, a lot get used on non-combat banes, or finding cool boons, or helping other characters, where they don't recharge.

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What I don't understand is why you choose to play Sajan with your play style.

Um...because those are the cards I got and the way I've wound up playing? It's certainly been effective. The party has done very well, though we did have one loss early on, mostly because Ezren starts with very little extra exploration and because at that point we hadn't figured out that Lini becomes drastically more effective if someone hands her a spare weapon first turn. And even that loss was really only because of a truly abysmal roll.
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Well, our group with Harsk and Lem is now done with Adventure 5, and neither of them have any new ranged weapons. The only new one we saw was in an area that we'd just closed.
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I would argue the game hates archers for a separate reason.

Harsk + long bow, is a D8+3 + D6, and his power is a recharge to help at other locations, limiting your hand for your next turn.

Valeros meanwhile, using the same weapon, get's a D8+D10, that's a higher potential roll right off the bat, for a melee guy, and he gives a free die at his location, which doesn't hurt his hand for the next turn.

Then, Harsk's best die is his Constitution, which is a D12, but it almost never shows up as a check, meanwhile the other characters best die seems to show up much more frequently.

Additionally, the dexterity closing location checks are generally on the higher end as compared to other skill closing checks, so once again, screwed.
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Calthaer the Bard
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squegeeboo wrote:
Then, Harsk's best die is his Constitution, which is a D12, but it almost never shows up as a check, meanwhile the other characters best die seems to show up much more frequently.


Harsk technically isn't an archer, per se...he's a ranger. While rangers can focus on ranged weaponry in the D&D / Pathfinder game setting, they sometimes focus on dual-wielding melee weapons or using other methods of combat. One of the more famous rangers in Forgotten Realms lore, in fact, was Drizzt Do'urden, who dual wielded two scimitars. While I understand being somewhat puzzled by having Harsk not be "as good" at ranged combat as Valeros can at times be, there is more to the game than just combat, and Harsk shines at some of those things, as you've pointed out (e.g., constitution / survival checks).
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squegeeboo wrote:
Then, Harsk's best die is his Constitution, which is a D12, but it almost never shows up as a check, meanwhile the other characters best die seems to show up much more frequently.
What scenarios are you playing through? Because Constitution/Fortitude checks seem to be showing up a lot in Sins of the Saviours - or maybe I just notice them a lot because none of our party has a decent Constitution...
 
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Calthaer wrote:
Harsk technically isn't an archer, per se...he's a ranger.

D8+3 ranged, d6 melee. Rangers might not necessarily be archers, but Harsk sure is.

Wulf Corbett wrote:
Because Constitution/Fortitude checks seem to be showing up a lot in Sins of the Saviours - or maybe I just notice them a lot because none of our party has a decent Constitution...

Yeah, at some point in SotS, Lisa (playing Harsk) was excitedly saying "Look, look at my dice! I'm rolling a d12! I've never gotten to roll a D12 for Harsk before!"

To add to Harsk's annoyance, our other two parties both have found a Venomous Heavy Crossbow +2.
 
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StormKnight wrote:
Yeah, at some point in SotS, Lisa (playing Harsk) was excitedly saying "Look, look at my dice! I'm rolling a d12! I've never gotten to roll a D12 for Harsk before!"
We regularly have Lini closing half the locations in a scenario because she's the only one with a decent Wisdom...
 
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