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Subject: Game end through zombie-kill: Still placing new zombies? rss

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Christian Heckmann
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Hey there,

we had a situation during the last game which should be kind of rare and it didn't even have an impact on the final scoring, but there might be situations, where it does. The game ended the instance I played the zombie card and killed the green main agent who was a restorationist. So loyalties were revealed and points claimed, but I had only seven zombies on the board. This lead to the question whether I'd still get to place the eighth zombie after killing the green agent, therefore scoring eight additional points, or I wouldn't and score nothing. As said, it didn't matter, I won nonetheless. But there might be situations when this matters.
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Michael Mesich
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The steps are pretty clear that first you eat and then after you place, so it probably isn't possible for you to both eat the Green Agent AND place the zombies as the game instantly ended during the eat phase.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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However, the Cthulhu card can end the game by sending a Restorationist mad when he Claims it, but you still fully resolve it, even if you are sent mad. For that reason, I'd probably let the Zombies card fully resolve rather than interrupting its resolution to end the game too.
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Anthony Rubbo
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This situation arose in our last game, too. Would love to know the answer.
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Petr Broz
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I would be inclined to support the opinion that the game ends during the eating phase, meaning that no more zombies are placed.

The Cthulhu card seems to be a very specific exception to me, and also
having a certain sort of flavor to the fact that it is ressolved anyway -
when you're summoning Cthulhu itself, you don't just complete the ritual
and then think ,,Hang on a minute, on second thought, let's not do that.".
It will just push it's way through, no matter if you change (or lose)
your mind or not.
 
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Ove Ahlman
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I interpreted the card as that you only gain the 8 points if you actually play the zombie card to end the game i.e. you have 8 zombies out and then play the zombie card.
This seems to be more balanced since else when you have 8 zombies out you have 8 free points which will in many cases end the game trough just revealing the loyalty. So having to play the card again to end the game seems quite a redundant thing then.
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Michael Mesich
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Linkor wrote:
I interpreted the card as that you only gain the 8 points if you actually play the zombie card to end the game i.e. you have 8 zombies out and then play the zombie card.
This seems to be more balanced since else when you have 8 zombies out you have 8 free points which will in many cases end the game trough just revealing the loyalty. So having to play the card again to end the game seems quite a redundant thing then.


If you play the card and 8 zombies are on the board, the game ends.

If you get Zombies early, this can be interesting.

If the game ends and there are 8 zombies on the board (regardless of how the game ends) AND the Zombie Lord is a Loyalist, (s)he gets 8 points.
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Gordon Watson
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The rules for ending the game are pretty clearly worded - "The games ends as soon as one of the following game end conditions has been met:....." and then the fourth bullet condition is "A Restorationist player's Main Agent is killed.." a few, but not exhaustive, examples of how the agent could be killed are then given.

So the game ends as soon as the Main Agent dies so no time to place another zombie.
 
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Christian Heckmann
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domus_ludorum wrote:
The rules for ending the game are pretty clearly worded - "The games ends as soon as one of the following game end conditions has been met:....." and then the fourth bullet condition is "A Restorationist player's Main Agent is killed.." a few, but not exhaustive, examples of how the agent could be killed are then given.

So the game ends as soon as the Main Agent dies so no time to place another zombie.

I thought so, too, but as far as I can see, this is the only possibility (and a very obscure one on top) for the game to end "mid-action", so just wanted to double-check.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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One thing worth noting... If the game ending is meant to interrupt the resolution of the remainder of the Zombies card, then you should probably never bother killing a Main Agent with the zombies, unless you want to end the game and you know you would win without the Zombies points. Revealing a Loyalist has no effect on the game apart from them adjusting their score.

And yes, this is the only mid-action way to end the game except for Claiming the Cthulhu card (which does complete). I don't think we'll know an answer to this one for sure until MW chimes in, but I do not think the rules provide a clear answer and I think it really can go either way, with me preferring that the card completes.

Linkor wrote:
I interpreted the card as that you only gain the 8 points if you actually play the zombie card to end the game i.e. you have 8 zombies out and then play the zombie card.
This seems to be more balanced since else when you have 8 zombies out you have 8 free points which will in many cases end the game trough just revealing the loyalty. So having to play the card again to end the game seems quite a redundant thing then.

And if you play it that way, the Zombies player will probably never score their points, as all the other players need to do is kill a single zombie before the card reenters your hand to stop you from ever being able to get the points from the card. They could also safely end the game through another method even while you have all 8 on the board without bothering to look at your score. Given how easy it is to kill a zombie, this would make the scoring aspect of the card excessively weak. The ability to end the game with Zombies is a way to end the game early, before you have enough points to end the game by revealing your identity.

The scoring rules on page 9 make no mention of requiring to have just played the Zombies card to score the points, so they should count to the score of a revealed player (or a player calculating if they would end the game by revealing).
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Joan Ribera
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Maybe I don't remember it properly, but I think that killing agents with zombies is not mandatory, is it?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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jrv666 wrote:
Maybe I don't remember it properly, but I think that killing agents with zombies is not mandatory, is it?

You remember correctly. It isn't.
 
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Martin Wallace
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Interesting situation. I would say that the game ends immediately rather than you being able to place more zombies. To get the bonus for having all eight zombies on the board you have to rely on other players not killing them before you can play the card again, i.e. players have an opportunity to deny you the bonus. Gaining the bonus without other players having the chance to stop you seems a little too gamey.

Martin
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Gordon Watson
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Frog1 wrote:
Interesting situation. I would say that the game ends immediately rather than you being able to place more zombies. To get the bonus for having all eight zombies on the board you have to rely on other players not killing them before you can play the card again, i.e. players have an opportunity to deny you the bonus. Gaining the bonus without other players having the chance to stop you seems a little too gamey.

Martin


If you only score the zombie pts if you play the zombie cards when they are all on the board -

Does that also apply to the situation highlighted by Linkor above, i.e. you have 5 zombies and use your first action to play the zombie card and place your remaining zombies so 8 are on the board - you then use your second action to reveal yourself as a Loyalist relying on the 8 pts to push you over the game-end threshold.

What happens if someone else ends the game, in whatever manner, and the 8 zombies are on the board - do you score them then?
 
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Tom Chick
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domus_ludorum wrote:
Does that also apply to the situation highlighted by Linkor above, i.e. you have 5 zombies and use your first action to play the zombie card and place your remaining zombies so 8 are on the board - you then use your second action to reveal yourself as a Loyalist relying on the 8 pts to push you over the game-end threshold.


Gordon, it seems to me Martin was only responding to the original post when he talks about the players having a chance to respond (i.e. placing additional zombies AFTER performing a game-ending kill).

But this is an excellent question. I don't see any reading of the rules that would prohibit what you're suggesting. It seems to me if you're within eight points of the victory threshold and you have all eight zombies out, you should be able to reveal. Can anyone make a case for that NOT being allowed?

domus_ludorum wrote:
What happens if someone else ends the game, in whatever manner, and the 8 zombies are on the board - do you score them then?


Absolutely. The rules are clear that the holder of the zombie card scores for having eight zombies on the board when the game ends, regardless of who ends it or how it ends.

-Tom
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Gordon Watson
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Tom - I'm sure you are right in that MW was only replying to the initial post question and applied purely to that situation I think the ruling makes sense. However, his wording of -

"To get the bonus for having all eight zombies on the board you have to rely on other players not killing them before you can play the card again, i.e. players have an opportunity to deny you the bonus."
- if applied to the other situations above would preclude them.

Allowing zombies to be played out then relying on the points to hit the end game means the other players need to makes sure there are never more than 4 zombies in play at a point where the zombie player may have the card in hand - it feels very powerful and seems slightly counter to what MW suggests above. I think this aspect to ending the game was discussed on another thread and never resolved.
 
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Michael Mesich
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domus_ludorum wrote:
Tom - I'm sure you are right in that MW was only replying to the initial post question and applied purely to that situation I think the ruling makes sense. However, his wording of -

"To get the bonus for having all eight zombies on the board you have to rely on other players not killing them before you can play the card again, i.e. players have an opportunity to deny you the bonus."
- if applied to the other situations above would preclude them.

Allowing zombies to be played out then relying on the points to hit the end game means the other players need to makes sure there are never more than 4 zombies in play at a point where the zombie player may have the card in hand - it feels very powerful and seems slightly counter to what MW suggests above. I think this aspect to ending the game was discussed on another thread and never resolved.


I think that the mitigating factor here is that everyone knows they have the 8 point potential and should be able to take that into account after any player claims the Zombie card.

 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Yeah, I think Martin was only confirming that you have those 8 points whenever you have 8 Zombies on the board; i.e., you don't have to play the card to score the points.

So this ruling just means you should never assassinate somebody's Main Agent with the Zombies card unless you know you are going to win.

If you need the 8 points to be in the lead, then choose not to assassinate them, add your extra Zombies, then if you have enough score, take the Reveal action, or if you don't have enough, try to assassinate the main agent with a different card...
 
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Christian Heckmann
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Thanks for the answer, Martin. Although I'm not exactly sure about the "gamey" part, I find it quite a bit more "gamey" for the game to end the instance the agent is killed, without giving the last zombies to the player. I mean, speaking thematically, what happened? The zombie arrives moments after points were tallied and therefore can't be taken into account for determining the "winner"?

Nevertheless, this leads me to another question: Is ending the game by playing the zombie card when all eight zombies are on the board mandatory? Can I opt against ending the game if I want to use the zombies to kill an agent? Or to put it any other way, if I play the zombie card at this instance, what is it's effect? Simply ending the game or it's usual effect as well?
 
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