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Rivet Wars: Eastern Front» Forums » General

Subject: I don't get the love... rss

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Dan Weber
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Buddy picked up RW and let me begin by saying we both would have been all over the Kick Starter if we had the $$ available at the time. However, after about a dozen plays the game seems less entertaining than, well, most anything else.

The play time seems accurate...however we seem to finish games or know who will be winning them in about 15 minutes each game. There's this 'tipping point' where it has been impossible for the other side to recover and win. And this isn't like 8 to 7 vp and the game 'tips' to 10, I mean we find ourselves 3, maybe 4 turns in and the game's over. One of us has shot so far ahead that there is simply no recovery for the other player.

Not sure if this is just the dice, the luck of the special missions, bigger games needed, or what, but right now Rivet Wars is a big disappointment for both of us. Shame, really, since the models are amazing.

Anyone have a thought about this? I'm not trying to tear down the game as much as trying to figure out what people LOVE about it or what they are doing differently...maybe it is simply the games are too fast for what we want but folks like that...
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Jim Lewis
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I'm waiting for my extra stuff from Kickstarter to arrive and hoping that makes it more fun. Right, now, it's okay if you're in the mood for some quick and lucky. It's improved if you remove secret mission cards, or at least some of them.

Edit: Oh yeah, i agree about the foreknowledge of the winner. We usually know pretty early, unless one of us has a good hand of secret missions that complete that reverse the game. I've played one game where my opponent went from 1 VP to 10 VP in 2 rounds. And I've won a game by drawing the right secret mission cards on turn 3.
 
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Highlord Tamburlaine
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I really hope all the other goodies help.

I think having a lot more variety of units that can mix things up will do wonders for the game.
 
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Dave Smith
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Sometimes games do go like that but you can play the scenario a dozen times and each game will be different which keeps it fresh for me. The reason one player can romp ahead is due to the many factors that can alter the game.
Unit selection.
Lucky dice rolls.
Action Cards.
Tactics.
and Mission Cards.

If you are on a lucky roll with these then you could well zoom ahead, but the flip side is it also means its possible to catch up if losing heavily. It's because the game has so many variables you can easily win or lose.

I think that the main culprit is the Mission Cards as these vary so much in achievability and reward, we are trying to reduce their effect with a couple of mods.
1) When you draw 2 cards at the beginning, players may swap one of them. Drawing the tank killer and tank shock cards is a huge hinderance.
2) Leroy Jenkins can not be achieved if the Tunnel Rat or Air Drop card is used - makes it an auto 2VP.

The other big game changer is in the unit selection early on in the game, anybody who jumps in with the flash stuff to early and forsaking the infantry is on to a loss, as you need those infantry to secure the SO's to get the VP's.

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birchbeer
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I'm reserving judgment until the Brighton expansion comes out (the air units
are the most intriguing, I think), but I agree with much of what you're saying.

The secret missions are pretty imbalanced, or at least seem to be thus far. Perhaps missions should not give VP, but rather rivets and/or deployment points?

Also, I think some of our expectations are different than the game's vision; we're expecting a more strategic battle to develop when the game is basically a tactical skirmish by design. This is fine, but I'd like to see a variant ruleset that allows for a deeper game. I envisage a cross between, say, Memoir '44 and Manoeuvre. I've been giving this some thought, but don't yet have any variants tieing in with RW.

What about deploying infantry as a UNIT (4) rather than individually and requiring them to remain together, and when the last man is killed it scores 1 VP? This is an aspect of Memoir I really like and think might work well in RW. Perhaps you could create combination UNIT that mixes different types of figures for attacking or defending purposes?

I also like the idea of a forced retreat in Memoir. There should be some mechanism for forcing retreat and gain ground through pursuit. And if you have no area to fall back to, it counts as a hit.

Manoeuvre dice modification system through not only the unit but also through cards you play prior to the roll, is also a simple, clever, mechanism that could be utilized in some manner within RW. I'm not suggesting to abandon the current RW system, but rather to modify it a bit so that it's not just a "I rolled a 5, it's a hit" replay over and over.

 
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Ted Terranova
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Some things to make the game feel more strategic are making sure you are using the grid order in an optimal way. Taking the time to group units for the best defense and buff strategies can really make a big difference. I've talked to a few players who didn't understand how this worked and once it clicked in their minds it really improved their experience.

Also trying some of the later scenarios in the rulebook. The first ones are meant to be pretty simple for just starting out. Some of the later scenarios are larger with different rules.

You also might want to try downloading some of the scenarios people have been creating.

http://rivetwars.com/free-scenarios/

Some require two core boxes but others don't. Some also allow for up to 4 players. When putting the rulebook together the decision was made to keep most of the scenarios quicker and more accessible and then support the game with downloadable content and expanded scenarios. There is also an editor now so you can create your own scenarios.

Another development in the pipe is the tabletop ruleset. During the kickstarter there was a big push to offer players a way to field large armies on their already built game tables. We thought this was a great idea.

And maybe swing by the CMoN forums. There have been a lot of discussions about different strategies.

http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?68-Rive...

It's great to hear feedback and ideas on the game. I hope some of these things help you get a bit more fun out of the Rivet Wars.
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Dan Weber
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Seems like similar vibes or 'hope' in expansions fixing things...

Two things I think we might try:
1. Redrawing one of the Special Mission cards. That's a nice, simple tweak.
2. Likewise the SMs not granting VPs, but instead count as deployment points equal to their VPs. Could say 2 VP on cards = 1 rivet as well. And a player can stock them up to spend a lot at once (or for rivets), or use as soon as they get them...that would maybe mitigate some of the bad luck factor with dice.
 
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Jim Lewis
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Novacaine31 wrote:
It's great to hear feedback and ideas on the game. I hope some of these things help you get a bit more fun out of the Rivet Wars.


Ted, I love that you're involved in discussion with your fans. It's one of the many things I love about being a gamer.

Don't let my previous post fool you, I love the Rivet Wars universe and I'm painting all my rivets and my buddy and I've played every mission that doesn't need two core boxes as well as some random set-up slugfests.

Our first couple of games we played the grid order wrong (i.e., not at all) but since then we figured it out and it's a part of our strategies. Even with that, it feels like most games come down to dice rolls or the right secret mission card draws, regardless of strategies involved.

One thing that we are going to try is laying out three face up (not so) secret mission cards instead of each having a hand.

Anyway, still looking forward to all the kickstarter extras and future expansions.
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Michael Link
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I hate to say that my family has been the exact opposite with this. We've played it maybe about 10 times since getting it in. There were a few times where I pulled ahead to 8, 9 VP and then my wife or son turned it around and I lost. Maybe it's luck, who knows. Only twice did it really seem like I wasn't going to win, no matter what I did to turn it around. I base that on my own bad decisions rather than the design of the game. Gives me something to learn from. =)
 
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Jeff Pseudonym
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I am so on the fence about this game it's not funny. I don't mean to hijack this thread but I wanted to throw a quick question out there to you guys. Do you find that casual gamers get in to RW pretty easy?

-Jeff M.
 
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Paul DeStefano
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The game is ultra light, bordering on simplistic.

This is fairly fitting a match to the wildly cool stylized minis.

But the impact the player has on the game seems almost minimal.

It's entertaining for what it is, but I would not call it anything like a wargame or serious strategy game. It's almost filler.
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birchbeer
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Geosphere wrote:
The game is ultra light, bordering on simplistic.

This is fairly fitting a match to the wildly cool stylized minis.

But the impact the player has on the game seems almost minimal.

It's entertaining for what it is, but I would not call it anything like a wargame or serious strategy game. It's almost filler.


While this is basically true, I see all kinds of potential for RW, especially with so many different types of units. It could be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it.

The great thing about Ted is he seems very engaged with the peanut gallery and is open to constructive and original ideas.
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Jeff Pseudonym
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Thanks for the replies. I have a few heavy games so I'm kinda looking for a more beer/pretzel game that I can goof off with now and again.

-Jeff M.
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Dave Smith
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Geosphere wrote:
The game is ultra light, bordering on simplistic.

This is fairly fitting a match to the wildly cool stylized minis.

But the impact the player has on the game seems almost minimal.



Have to disagree with that, troop choice and placement is key to this game although bad play can be mitigated by luck, but that's true for all games with a luck element.
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Matt Price
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To chime in here, I've had a lot of fun with the game. It is very simple to get into, and simple to play but very fun with some interesting strategic choices to make when selecting your units. It's unfortunate that the cards included in the base game can really swing the game wildly. Perhaps playing the Objective cards out in the open might help this some. I wish there were more cards, and that they weren't so powerful, as an extra one (or two!) VPs in one turn can be quite game changing.

I too have played a few games where I saw victory snatched from the jaws of defeat; but also one or two that were over by turn 2 or 3.

We didn't bother with the first few scenarios and jumped right in with the last few. I find the game a lot of fun, but yes, it's fairly light.

Though this doesn't apply to the base game, I am *really* looking forward to the expansions when they come. I can't recall if this is the case, but I hope some come with extra cards so we can mix and match, and perhaps replace some of those game-killers with milder options!

And airplanes!!! Woot!
 
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Justin Gortner
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Seems to me like a quick tweak of the mission cards can make this quite a bit more strategic.

No secret mission cards. With the X (maybe 3?) of them face up. Either player can go for them. Once a player gets one, tap it. If on the next turn that player gets the mission, discard it (neither player gets points). If not the original player gets the points.

So it's a race for them since they are public. You can retaliate and nullify certain ones if you position and play smart.
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Kurt Markum
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I enjoy this game it's a Good game to play. My one thing I feel the issue is. I have played the game with a group with base game and one with some of the kickstarter stuff. Feel like the Kickstarter stuff makes the game so much more fun and involved. Kind of the issue I have with Kickstarter and exclusive content. Is that some games that comeout from it with too much exclusives really changes the game at the same time some games through kickstarter come out with too much content and never use it. Just my 2 cents. It could just been the groups I was playing with as well. But did enjoy the game both times very much.
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Mickey
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Kaychan666 wrote:
I enjoy this game it's a Good game to play. My one thing I feel the issue is. I have played the game with a group with base game and one with some of the kickstarter stuff. Feel like the Kickstarter stuff makes the game so much more fun and involved. Kind of the issue I have with Kickstarter and exclusive content. Is that some games that comeout from it with too much exclusives really changes the game at the same time some games through kickstarter come out with too much content and never use it. Just my 2 cents. It could just been the groups I was playing with as well. But did enjoy the game both times very much.

How did you get to play with Kickstarter stuff ? Only Base game has been sent to backers. All Kickstarter expansions and exclusives are still in production.
Or was it at a convention ?
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William Smith
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Heishiro1976 wrote:
Kaychan666 wrote:
I enjoy this game it's a Good game to play. My one thing I feel the issue is. I have played the game with a group with base game and one with some of the kickstarter stuff. Feel like the Kickstarter stuff makes the game so much more fun and involved. Kind of the issue I have with Kickstarter and exclusive content. Is that some games that comeout from it with too much exclusives really changes the game at the same time some games through kickstarter come out with too much content and never use it. Just my 2 cents. It could just been the groups I was playing with as well. But did enjoy the game both times very much.

How did you get to play with Kickstarter stuff ? Only Base game has been sent to backers. All Kickstarter expansions and exclusives are still in production.
Or was it at a convention ?

I'd like to know the same thing.
 
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D Jackson
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I think a lot of the love stems from the fact that we all spent a minimum of $100 on this game and it looks amazing and the components are top notch....but the gameplay grows stale quickly.

That last part can be fixed and I think this explains the eagerness for heavy and air units expansions. It's kind of a bummer to spend so much though and already feel that an expansion is necessary to justify the cost.

Others are just really bummed that they dropped $100 on a game they won't play after 8-9 sessions.
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tim thorson
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I did the kickstarter and the game defiantly wasn't worth the hype. Played only a few times.
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J Ry
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I don't regret it.
Or at least I won't, when everything comes in.

I think it'll be really worth it with everything available.

Especially when the table top rules are a go.
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birchbeer
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ropya wrote:
I don't regret it.
Or at least I won't, when everything comes in.

I think it'll be really worth it with everything available.

Especially when the table top rules are a go.


I agree it was "worth it," especially with the air and heavy metal units coming. However, I'm not a fan of the tabletop 'fix'. I realize some people like it, which is fine, but the whole idea of getting a ruler out to measure distances, etc., is just blech, and basically kills the 'board' game feel.

The current grids would still work fine if the rules and cards were redone a bit. I could see new grid tiles and terrain packs being compelling additions down the road as well.

Part of the problem, I'm now convinced, is that each turn you are allowed to move and attack with EVERY one of the units on the board. This is just too much freedom, which lends to that feeling of redundancy as you attack each other with everything every turn, capturing and re-capturing the same locations like a ping pong match.

Your movement and attack abilities, per turn, should be limited to the available action cards you hold in your hand, and maybe some *special actions* that you've earned through achieving strategic objectives.

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Matt Price
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It's not a fix, it's a bonus! It just seems like such a good idea, to give players two options of how to play. I've checked out the table top rules and they look fine, not very different at all from the board game.

But yea, rulers do suck. So the main mode of play for me will certainly be with the board.
 
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J Ry
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bamonson wrote:
ropya wrote:
I don't regret it.
Or at least I won't, when everything comes in.

I think it'll be really worth it with everything available.

Especially when the table top rules are a go.


I agree it was "worth it," especially with the air and heavy metal units coming. However, I'm not a fan of the tabletop 'fix'. I realize some people like it, which is fine, but the whole idea of getting a ruler out to measure distances, etc., is just blech, and basically kills the 'board' game feel.

The current grids would still work fine if the rules and cards were redone a bit. I could see new grid tiles and terrain packs being compelling additions down the road as well.

Part of the problem, I'm now convinced, is that each turn you are allowed to move and attack with EVERY one of the units on the board. This is just too much freedom, which lends to that feeling of redundancy as you attack each other with everything every turn, capturing and re-capturing the same locations like a ping pong match.

Your movement and attack abilities, per turn, should be limited to the available action cards you hold in your hand, and maybe some *special actions* that you've earned through achieving strategic objectives.



I I didn't mean for the table top to be the fix.
More a bonus bit.
And being a Warhammer 40k,uncharted seas, dead zone, ex dust tactics player I enjoy table top war games.
So for me it's a great perk.

Plus.
Terrain.

That said, I'm cutting up my terrain boards to give them some 3d using foam core what not with the trenches.

Back to topic.

I suppose the full force I go u go way is something I'm used to with the other games I've mentioned so it's not a big deal to me.

You could try a staggered I go u go based on unit type.
Infantry and air scouts.
Then fast movers and air fighters
Then tanks and bombers
Then super heavies.

Maybe that would work better for you?

On that note, have you played battlelore?
It's CnC system works just as you speak of.
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