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DC Comics Deck-Building Game: Heroes Unite» Forums » General

Subject: Shazam! overpowered rss

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Alapai Michels
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I just played two games of Heroes Unite and while they were awesome, Shazam, the Super Hero seems way too overpowered. Even for as many times that I got 2 and 3 costed cards (and a Talon), the couple of times I got a 7 with Shazam made the rest inconsequential. This was after losing a game to my friend by one point, when he got a bunch of really good Black Canary stuff. The second game, he didn't stand a chance and I scored in the mid 130's. Riddler might have been cheaper to use, but being able to use it GUARANTEED on one of the the first two turns of the game and getting multiple 16 power hands where I just get 4 off the top seems ridiculous. I think future games where I play with him will have him be once per turn, because otherwise is ridiculous.

Does anybody think he's actually balanced as is?
 
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Benj Davis
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I've not played with him yet, but he didn't seem great. Very luck dependent, naturally.
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Max Maloney
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I would say he's heavily random and therefore swingy. How good he'll be is unpredictable. Mostly I don't think that is a good thing.

Also, his name is Captain Marvel.
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Alapai Michels
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Sure, it is pretty luck dependent. Until you do it every turn and gain ungodly amounts of cards. I don't know how you value cards, but if I get a 5 and a 2 off of it, I feel like I got good value. And a 6 and a 1? That's just even better. Plus, you get to put it on top if you want. All of that adds up to ridiculousness.
 
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Alapai Michels
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Dormammu wrote:
I would say he's heavily random and therefore swingy. How good he'll be is unpredictable. Mostly I don't think that is a good thing.

Also, his name is Captain Marvel.


Unfortunately, to make things simpler for non comic fans, DC made him Shazam with the new 52. I hate it too.
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Peter Cooper
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Not a big fan of the word 'overpowered'. (Or of "Shazam" for that matter). I played this game with two opponents yesterday. One played Captain Shazam Marvel, and for his first move picked up super-strength (a power 5, cost 7 card from the first set). Regular players will know that getting high powered cards early is tremendous, strategically. In the end, however, he scored lowest of the three of us. So no, Captain Shaz is not overpowered.

"Overpowered", "underpowered" or, heaven forbid "broken" are difficult words to use in connection with this game (and the Lord of the Rings version) because there are many ordinary cards mixed with many other very powerful cards, so a single card can stand out against the others sometimes, but the next time you play the same card it can rate poorly against different combinations.
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David Harding
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PiLovesDeadpool wrote:
Dormammu wrote:
I would say he's heavily random and therefore swingy. How good he'll be is unpredictable. Mostly I don't think that is a good thing.

Also, his name is Captain Marvel. :(


Unfortunately, to make things simpler for non comic fans, DC made him Shazam with the new 52. I hate it too.

I didn't know that! Booooo!
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Cliff Fuller
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Stephanie Baynes wrote:
Not a big fan of the word 'overpowered.' "Overpowered," "underpowered" or, heaven forbid "broken"...


These terms are used so frequently on BGG thread titles that they should be pinned automatically to every entry with a blank space for what the OP considers "overpowered" or "broken."

I generally skip threads that lead with it - taking it with a mugful of salt when I see it for a game that has just been released and probably hasn't been played many times by many players.

As stated, the swings of luck/randomization that this particular game brings with its huge decks and multitude of combos between low-level and high-level cards will sometimes render a card unstoppable in any particular game.

But the small sample size of saying "I played this once or twice and this happened so it must be like this all the time" so devalues the the term "overpowered" as to render it meaningless.
 
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Jonathan Ramundi
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As others have said, he's swingy; overpowered depending on the game.

My buddy top-decked the 8-cost Shazam card (can’t remember the name) early in one game, as well as other awesome cards throughout (don’t think he ever got something that costs less than 4) and won convincingly...but even still wasn't too far ahead of second place.

In one game, I got mostly 2 and 3-cost cards; one 7-cost. Because of that and other factors—including no less than 4 turns of being able to do nothing (having 2 or less power and no cards to buy)—I got destroyed. In fact, it was the worst game I have ever had. EVER. 19 points was my final score.

Yet I do like Shazam for the potential for awesomeness.
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Alapai Michels
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hackryder wrote:
Stephanie Baynes wrote:
Not a big fan of the word 'overpowered.' "Overpowered," "underpowered" or, heaven forbid "broken"...


These terms are used so frequently on BGG thread titles that they should be pinned automatically to every entry with a blank space for what the OP considers "overpowered" or "broken."

I generally skip threads that lead with it - taking it with a mugful of salt when I see it for a game that has just been released and probably hasn't been played many times by many players.

As stated, the swings of luck/randomization that this particular game brings with its huge decks and multitude of combos between low-level and high-level cards will sometimes render a card unstoppable in any particular game.

But the small sample size of saying "I played this once or twice and this happened so it must be like this all the time" so devalues the the term "overpowered" as to render it meaningless.


Sorry I made a post that seems like other posts here; I rarely browse the forums. No, I haven't played DC Heroes Unite a lot of times, but I have played the original, and Riddler was one of the best cards in it. Every time I played with Riddler, he got way too many good cards off the top. Shazam is better because of the repeatability every turn as well as being able to put it on top (despite it costing one more power), so I was wary of using him in a game.

As an afterthought, what sample size should I use before coming back here and making claims that you will ignore because of the use of a term that you feel is overused? If I play 5 times is that enough? What is the limit before I start complaining?
 
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Gil Marquez
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PiLovesDeadpool wrote:

Does anybody think he's actually balanced as is?


Balanced isn't the right word... If everything were balanced, we wouldn't have Tiers of Super Heroes, and let's face it, how many people are going to argue that Starfire/Cyborg isn't near the top tier of Super Heroes and that Batman isn't near the bottom...

Having said that, I think Shazam's power doesn't come from getting random cards with no Synergy. Having 5 Power leaves you in no man's land when there's a good 4 drop on the board and you use his ability only to get a 2 or a 3 drop.

It's getting that card on top of your deck ala Aquaman. It takes a good player to be able to take a bunch of random cards, sometimes 2 drops, sometimes 3 drops, sometimes 6 drops, and make them work with any synergy and create combos late game. Knowing when to ability is just as important as knowing when to just take what's on the board.

So balanced, yeah he's balanced and fits right in... He's not as consistent as some of the stronger characters IMO, but he's definitely within my top 8 of Super Heroes, but can't break my top 4.

Feel free to come prove it to me on Lackey anytime... I'm always sitting at work playing DCDBG on Lackey. I'll take 3 or 4 Super Heroes over Shazam any day.



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PiLovesDeadpool wrote:

Unfortunately, to make things simpler for non comic fans, DC made him Shazam with the new 52. I hate it too.


More likely it has to do with the fact that Marvel has the Trademark for 'Captain Marvel'. DC probably got tired of the character's name not being the same as what was on the cover.

I don't think DC intends Shazam to be a mantle in the same way as Batman, etc.
 
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Benj Davis
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CodeAndReload wrote:
PiLovesDeadpool wrote:

Unfortunately, to make things simpler for non comic fans, DC made him Shazam with the new 52. I hate it too.


More likely it has to do with the fact that Marvel has the Trademark for 'Captain Marvel'. DC probably got tired of the character's name not being the same as what was on the cover.


Which seems like bull to me, when DC's Captain Marvel is older than Marvel's, right?
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Robert Wise
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Jlerpy wrote:
Which seems like bull to me


I'm inclined to agree, but I think Fawcett was defunct at the time.
 
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Alapai Michels
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Jlerpy wrote:
CodeAndReload wrote:
PiLovesDeadpool wrote:

Unfortunately, to make things simpler for non comic fans, DC made him Shazam with the new 52. I hate it too.


More likely it has to do with the fact that Marvel has the Trademark for 'Captain Marvel'. DC probably got tired of the character's name not being the same as what was on the cover.


Which seems like bull to me, when DC's Captain Marvel is older than Marvel's, right?


The basics are like this: Fawcett Comics made Captain Thunder who immediately was renamed Captain Marvel because of trademark issues. After DC sued because of similarities between Captain Marvel and Superman, Fawcett had to stop and there wasn't a Captain Marvel for a while. During this time, Marvel Comics made their own Captain Marvel and copyrighted it so that no other company could use Captain Marvel as the name of the series. When DC got the rights for Captain Marvel from Fawcett, they named the series Shazam after the name of the Wizard and the phrase he uses. Some people who aren't into comics think that the character is Shazam because the name of the comic is Shazam. When DC rebooted most recently, they decided to take away confusion from casual fans who they were trying to appeal to.
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Benj Davis
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PiLovesDeadpool wrote:
Jlerpy wrote:
CodeAndReload wrote:
PiLovesDeadpool wrote:

Unfortunately, to make things simpler for non comic fans, DC made him Shazam with the new 52. I hate it too.


More likely it has to do with the fact that Marvel has the Trademark for 'Captain Marvel'. DC probably got tired of the character's name not being the same as what was on the cover.


Which seems like bull to me, when DC's Captain Marvel is older than Marvel's, right?


The basics are like this: Fawcett Comics made Captain Thunder who immediately was renamed Captain Marvel because of trademark issues. After DC sued because of similarities between Captain Marvel and Superman, Fawcett had to stop and there wasn't a Captain Marvel for a while. During this time, Marvel Comics made their own Captain Marvel and copyrighted it so that no other company could use Captain Marvel as the name of the series. When DC got the rights for Captain Marvel from Fawcett, they named the series Shazam after the name of the Wizard and the phrase he uses. Some people who aren't into comics think that the character is Shazam because the name of the comic is Shazam. When DC rebooted most recently, they decided to take away confusion from casual fans who they were trying to appeal to.


Ah, I see. I hadn't realised that DC didn't start doing stuff with Captain Marvel until so late.
 
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Michael McGlade
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I've both played and gone against Shazam. He's very good, but the random factor is a tad of a pain. Sure, he gets you at least one victory point, but I've usually ended up having terrible hands. On the flip side, I went against someone who bought the top 10 cards of the main deck in a single turn (this was JUST with Heroes Unite) and even though he had no synergy he won by a landslide, but I've only seen that once out of the 20 or so games I've played where Shazam was someones Super Hero.

However, if he is to become a problem, my group has decided to limit his ability to once per turn.

~Zuty
 
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Michael Nanthachack
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I personally find him very strong, about as strong as Aquaman, who I personally rank as consistently strongest in the original. It's not jsut the fact that he can get cards off the top of the main deck, but it's that he can put them on HIS deck afterwards. Because of that, his start is on par with Aquaman's, Superman's, Cyborg's, and a lucky Wonder Woman. I would even venture to say his start is only bested by Aquaman's consistently.

However, I admit that my friends and I play the game a little differently, as we tend to care less about winning and more about deck building and getting the chance to play crazy combos. We routinely get through a third of the main deck before anyone buys the first Super Villain, and running out of the main deck before the SV's are defeated aren't a rare occurance with us.

With that style, Shazam is consistently great, while the other Super Heroes in Heroes Unite have their periods of usefulness. Batgirl is only good in the mid-game as you should want to destroy those punches by late game regardless. Black Canary and Hawkman are two of the strongest, but a too long game makes their decks too diluted. Same goes for Nightwing, though I'll always put more stock into drawing cards than extra power. Red Tornado will get his power more the longer the game lasts, but +2 power isn't that much. And Booster Gold is completely hit-or-miss because he is denied so easily since everybody still wants defenses.

As a side note, has anyone surpassed a score of 163? I was able to get that high with Shazam! last night in a two player game.
 
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Alapai Michels
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Again, I apologize for specifically using the words overpowered. When I used him tonight, I got 172 points, including all 7 Power Rings. Yes, my friend got 80+ points, as we wanted to keep playing instead of ending, but I still got 90 more points than him.

I agree that he can get some stuff that isn't good and that randomness is a factor that is negative, but his Aquaman ability to put them on top makes him getting something early really good (before you shuffle the first time, getting that earlier helps out a lot) and makes locations really good (Shazam! the top of the main deck, oh it's a villain? Top of my deck->Apokolips to reveal and draw!). I still also think that the times he gets something good outweighs the times he gets something bad, based on the difference between power levels of lower vs higher cards.
 
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Gil Marquez
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Srsly, if your opponent allows you to get all 7 power rings, OF COURSE you're gonna have more points. Same thing goes for allowing the game to CONTINUE after 8 Super Villains, of course it's going to be inflated...

Real games 1v1 shouldn't ever get that out of hand unless you both want it to.
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Yes and now it's really luck with Shazam. Played a game last night and one of the other players had Shazam. He would use the power roughly every other round and to everyone elses amusement got burned everytime. Only three times did he get a card that even cost 4 power, the rest were 2's and 3's. Needless to say he did not win.
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Caleb Haddon
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Having played this expansion numerous times, I can safely say Shazam is insanely OP. I've lost by more than 40 points to him as other powerful characters such as Superman after what I would consider very well-played and lucky games on my part. My group of players have a mutual agreement not to play as him. Between the option to top deck and the ability to leave the line-up unchanged and weak, Shazam is powerful to the point of being unfun to play as or against. He is the opposite of Forever Evil's Harley Quinn.
 
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