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Subject: Well Obama has one thing going for him... rss

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It's never boring...

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/03/russian-deputy...
 
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
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Which is...?
 
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whac3 wrote:
Which is...?


I said, looking above, It's never boring...
 
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Josh
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Those looks like Russians to me.
 
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μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
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TheDashi wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Which is...?


I said, looking above, It's never boring...

I was bored and missed that.
 
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Let me guess. You think that if a Russian official laughs about sanctions then this is evidence that Obama's sanction regime is laughable?

As a thought experiment, imagine two worlds. In one, Russian officials think that the sanctions won't hurt them. In the other, they think they will. In which world do they make public statements that the sanctions won't hurt them?

I'd guess both.
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
Let me guess. You think that if a Russian official laughs about sanctions then this is evidence that Obama's sanction regime is laughable?

As a thought experiment, imagine two worlds. In one, Russian officials think that the sanctions won't hurt them. In the other, they think they will. In which world do they make public statements that the sanctions won't hurt them?

I'd guess both.



If you don't get it, that is fine. I do not need to spend 1000 pages trying to explain it to you.
 
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At this point, I am curious to see if the folks still think that Obama/the US is handling this correctly/well.

From my perspective, the answer is no - but in many ways, there is very little that can be done because of decisions made over the course of the last 12-13 years.
 
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TheDashi wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
Let me guess. You think that if a Russian official laughs about sanctions then this is evidence that Obama's sanction regime is laughable?

As a thought experiment, imagine two worlds. In one, Russian officials think that the sanctions won't hurt them. In the other, they think they will. In which world do they make public statements that the sanctions won't hurt them?

I'd guess both.



If you don't get it, that is fine. I do not need to spend 1000 pages trying to explain it to you.


The point is clear: argle bargle Obama bad.
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Shadrach wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
Let me guess. You think that if a Russian official laughs about sanctions then this is evidence that Obama's sanction regime is laughable?

As a thought experiment, imagine two worlds. In one, Russian officials think that the sanctions won't hurt them. In the other, they think they will. In which world do they make public statements that the sanctions won't hurt them?

I'd guess both.



If you don't get it, that is fine. I do not need to spend 1000 pages trying to explain it to you.


The point is clear: argle bargle Obama bad.


Ok - lets turn it around then - do you think Obama is doing well in the Crimea crisis? Do you think that American Interests are being advanced there?

Because thus far based on everything that is public - it really seems like they are not - and like it or hate it - Obama gets the credit when things go well (Osama) and the blame when they go bad - and to be blunt, not seeing a whole lot of good so far - just a lot of talk and meaningless threats.
 
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What real interests does America have in the Crimea, either way?
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Utrecht wrote:
Ok - lets turn it around then - do you think Obama is doing well in the Crimea crisis? Do you think that American Interests are being advanced there?


I think he's doing about as well as one could hope given the realities of the situation. But I'm game. Tell me what he could do better that would actually help the people of Ukraine.

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Because thus far based on everything that is public - it really seems like they are not - and like it or hate it - Obama gets the credit when things go well (Osama) and the blame when they go bad - and to be blunt, not seeing a whole lot of good so far - just a lot of talk and meaningless threats.


This is just hogwash without any foundation. The President has been taken to task over Egypt, Libya, Syria, Tunisia, Afghanistan, etc. by both liberals and conservatives. Sometimes with merit, sometimes without.

Why anybody thinks he's somehow coated in Teflon is beyond me. His approval numbers simply don't bear that out.
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
What real interests does America have in the Crimea, either way?


Exactly.

Americans as a "public opinion" has very little interest in the Crimea.

I see the Crimea as an area that is ethnic Russian who has during a time of chaotic government turnover decided it wants its controlled interest in another government. Formally Illegal or not. And the U.S. government trying to propagandize it to fit their narrative is just not working.

The whole evil empire thing is passe'
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MWChapel wrote:

Americans as a "public opinion" has very little interest in the Crimea.


It is odd how much is being made of it. It's not like there is ethnic cleansing going on. There aren't any human rights abuses at all that I know of, other than maybe the right to protest. It is solely people worried about Russian expansion. In fact, the worry over this is affecting real issues like the conflict in the Central African Republic.
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-crisis-hampers-eus-central-afr...

Some argue that Obama hasn't done enough in this crisis (CAR) and actual innocent people are being killed quite regularly.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-central-african-r...
 
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MWChapel wrote:
Dolphinandrew wrote:
What real interests does America have in the Crimea, either way?


Exactly.

Americans as a "public opinion" has very little interest in the Crimea.

I see the Crimea as an area that is ethnic Russian who has during a time of chaotic government turnover decided it wants its controlled interest in another government. Formally Illegal or not. And the U.S. government trying to propagandize it to fit their narrative is just not working.

The whole evil empire thing is passe'


It's nothing but politics. If Obama did something, it would be the wrong something. Since he's doing little, he needs to be doing something. And if it was a GOPer in office, the Dems would be playing the same game. But in this instance, there doesn't seem to be anything that needs to be done. We do not need to get involved in every single civil war that exists on the planet. Sometimes, we can let other people sort stuff out for themselves.
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GameCrossing wrote:

It's nothing but politics. If Obama did something, it would be the wrong something. Since he's doing little, he needs to be doing something. And if it was a GOPer in office, the Dems would be playing the same game. But in this instance, there doesn't seem to be anything that needs to be done. We do not need to get involved in every single civil war that exists on the planet. Sometimes, we can let other people sort stuff out for themselves.


The only way I see this being something we need to get involved in is if there is a clear and present danger to our Allies in NATO. We can support the U.N. condemning sham elections 100%, but doing anything outside of U.N. action suggests a personal stake that we don't really have.
 
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TheDashi wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
Let me guess. You think that if a Russian official laughs about sanctions then this is evidence that Obama's sanction regime is laughable?

As a thought experiment, imagine two worlds. In one, Russian officials think that the sanctions won't hurt them. In the other, they think they will. In which world do they make public statements that the sanctions won't hurt them?

I'd guess both.



If you don't get it, that is fine. I do not need to spend 1000 pages trying to explain it to you.


My guess is that if you had anything worth explaining you could do it in less than 1000 words and probably in 1000 characters.
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GameCrossing wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
Dolphinandrew wrote:
What real interests does America have in the Crimea, either way?


Exactly.

Americans as a "public opinion" has very little interest in the Crimea.

I see the Crimea as an area that is ethnic Russian who has during a time of chaotic government turnover decided it wants its controlled interest in another government. Formally Illegal or not. And the U.S. government trying to propagandize it to fit their narrative is just not working.

The whole evil empire thing is passe'


It's nothing but politics. If Obama did something, it would be the wrong something. Since he's doing little, he needs to be doing something. And if it was a GOPer in office, the Dems would be playing the same game. But in this instance, there doesn't seem to be anything that needs to be done. We do not need to get involved in every single civil war that exists on the planet. Sometimes, we can let other people sort stuff out for themselves.


Thats all well and good, but history shows that these wars, when no one intervenes, generally devolve into a massive slaughter of innocent people. Maybe this time it'll be different.

I agree though, the US should not be the world police.
 
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Dispaminite wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
Dolphinandrew wrote:
What real interests does America have in the Crimea, either way?


Exactly.

Americans as a "public opinion" has very little interest in the Crimea.

I see the Crimea as an area that is ethnic Russian who has during a time of chaotic government turnover decided it wants its controlled interest in another government. Formally Illegal or not. And the U.S. government trying to propagandize it to fit their narrative is just not working.

The whole evil empire thing is passe'


It's nothing but politics. If Obama did something, it would be the wrong something. Since he's doing little, he needs to be doing something. And if it was a GOPer in office, the Dems would be playing the same game. But in this instance, there doesn't seem to be anything that needs to be done. We do not need to get involved in every single civil war that exists on the planet. Sometimes, we can let other people sort stuff out for themselves.


Thats all well and good, but history shows that these wars, when no one intervenes, generally devolve into a massive slaughter of innocent people. Maybe this time it'll be different.

I agree though, the US should not be the world police.


But that is because these types of wars are generally ethnic in nature. One group has spent decades being oppressed, they finally get in power, and the come-uppance arrives with a side order of blood. That doesn't look like what's going on here. There's not the ethnic element to it. There's no "we've been oppressed and now it's time to eradicate our oppressors." It's a massive contract dispute among nations. It just feels like all the elements that lend themselves to wholesale slaughter simply aren't there. I admit, I may be wrong, but that's the feeling I get.
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There will be ethnic violence down the road. The Tartar minority and Russia have a *thing*

As for serving American interests, there are no distinctly American interests at stake. What is at stake is global interests. It is in the interest of the global community to come down hard and in a unified way when an influential country goes rogue and behaves like a banana republic. As this is a problem being addressed in a new manner(previously we just had wars) it is going to be slow forming and make missteps. What I think Obama has done well is to not grandstand be sure it is not simply a US/Russia thing. I am waiting to see how it plays out, but in the end this will be a shared global result not an Obama one no matter how it settles.
 
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utoption2 wrote:
...and then he will be doing bad things in Chicago.


This statement is redundant.
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
What real interests does America have in the Crimea, either way?


The mindset from the Cold War that the US needs to get involved in everything really needs to die, and die soon. I'd go so far as to argue that attitude was what caused the Cold War in the first place.
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Dispaminite wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
Dolphinandrew wrote:
What real interests does America have in the Crimea, either way?


Exactly.

Americans as a "public opinion" has very little interest in the Crimea.

I see the Crimea as an area that is ethnic Russian who has during a time of chaotic government turnover decided it wants its controlled interest in another government. Formally Illegal or not. And the U.S. government trying to propagandize it to fit their narrative is just not working.

The whole evil empire thing is passe'


It's nothing but politics. If Obama did something, it would be the wrong something. Since he's doing little, he needs to be doing something. And if it was a GOPer in office, the Dems would be playing the same game. But in this instance, there doesn't seem to be anything that needs to be done. We do not need to get involved in every single civil war that exists on the planet. Sometimes, we can let other people sort stuff out for themselves.


Thats all well and good, but history shows that these wars, when no one intervenes, generally devolve into a massive slaughter of innocent people. Maybe this time it'll be different.

I agree though, the US should not be the world police.


When has intervention done anything except delay the inevitable, though?
 
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utoption2 wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
Dolphinandrew wrote:
What real interests does America have in the Crimea, either way?


Exactly.

Americans as a "public opinion" has very little interest in the Crimea.

I see the Crimea as an area that is ethnic Russian who has during a time of chaotic government turnover decided it wants its controlled interest in another government. Formally Illegal or not. And the U.S. government trying to propagandize it to fit their narrative is just not working.

The whole evil empire thing is passe'



I think it TheDashi's world, if Prez Obama is doing something, it's gotta be BADDDDDDDDDDD. He could be inventing Cold Fusion, the cure for cancer, anything, it would be BAD, BAD, BAD. Nothing will be good about Obama until he's out of the White House, and then he will be doing bad things in Chicago.


Negative Sir, you are WWWRRRRRRRROOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
 
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When he first got elected, he promised no lobbyists.... I thought that was a good idea, but he didnt do it. Does that count? I supported what he lied about? If he had actually done it, I dont know if the Dems would have gotten mad at him.
This is what I remember from 2008, so it has been pretty much downhill since then.
I am trying to think of something else that has actually happened, not a hypothetical.
He supported the defense of marriage act, until he changed his mind about that. Does that count?
 
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