Brett Hudoba
United States
Bloomington
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm wondering who else out there has attempted this? I imagined it would be very thematic as they came in the same promo pack, after all. Since finally gaining access to Setback with the release of Vengeance, I was anxious to give this matchup a try--and I have to say, I find it highly ironic and confusing that the promo Dark Watch Heroes seem completely unsuitable for tackling the promo Spite.

A big part of the problem is that Spite's drugs activate far quicker since they start on the table (albeit facedown), which also means there's no way to delay this via deck manipulation. As Mr. Fixer and Expatriette mainly rely on Equipment and Ongoings to be really effective (Nightmist and Setback to a smaller degree), even if they manage to get set up early, all the effort is eventually negated once the cards start getting nuked from drug effects. Moreover, Mr. Fixer is the only character who has a base power that deals damage, and guess what? It also destroys a Hero Ongoing or Equipment card as a tradeoff.

Add to this the fact that the other Hero powers are practically useless once the "2 damage backlash + discard 5 cards for using a power" drug effect comes into play:

• Nightmist gets to look at and reorder the top three cards of her deck--which then summarily get discarded along with two others. Wheeeee.

• Setback can discard a token from his Unlucky pool to reduce the next damage dealt to a Hero by 2--which then soaks up the immediately-resulting backlash damage, and he gets to discard five more cards, too. Completely pointless other than to purposefully reduce his Unlucky pool.

• Expatriette can add 1 to her damage until the end of her next turn--except that she more often than not doesn't have any cards out at this point anyway, making it more useful for her to play and activate a firearm that's likely just going back into her hand at the start of the Villain turn (again, due to drug effects).

Like the standard Spite, since most Ongoings and Equipment are usually gone you are then forced to rely on hopefully drawing one-shot cards to deal any damage at all (without repercussion), which in no way can keep pace with the regular punishment he deals to each Hero every round (which is horrific if you don't immediately put all rescued Victims back into play from under the Safehouse once he flips).

Someone please convince me that my analysis is somehow flawed, because I am otherwise completely baffled. Why would the promos be designed in such a way as to make what should on the surface be a really cool iconic rivalry (from what we can glean from hints of the storyline) into a frustrating, unplayable mess?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Artifice Knight
United States
Utah
flag msg tools
Actually, this exact match up my friend and I did recently. We had the same match four different times (and are planning more later), resulting in three losses and one success.

A disheartening statistic to be sure, but only the first time did we lose by a substantial margin. After that Spite was reduced to a dozen or less HP before the heroes untimely fall. The game we won we actually managed to get ahead of the victim curve and stop the drugs from happening at all (a bit of a miracle, but not something to rely on).

I should first mention that the rule my friends and I had was that Dark Watch promos were suggested, but not a rule. Due to this, Setback was using his Risk power, not mitigate.

Play ongoings and equipment. A lot of them. Even a few of them that aren't that good. This can both fuel Mr. Fixers rage of destruction as well as slow down the hell that occurs when that counter-strike drug is revealed. Once it hits your greatest, best hope is making him flip.

Fortunately, once he *does*, options open up immensely. Since the ongoing/equipment negation is sending them back to your hand, most characters should have a rather large hand of ongoings and equipment. Have an Unload burning in Ex-Patriettes hand? Let her free all of the hostages to play 4+ cards at once, and just take the incoming storm of damage as a final hurrah. Better yet, have Fixer go-drop a style and Hoist chain so that you can lower Spites damage (and part of why I have Fixer last in turn order, so Ex-Patriettes next go around she can do her unload strategy with damage reduction still in place). Setback and Nightmist can both be on hostage duty, satisfying the needs to get them in the safehouse for your two powerhouses to get thier card plays.

Yes, its a difficult fight, and often uphill, but I and my friends found it rather intensely satisfying. And our one victory was by an incredible margin-he started the game with 2 Good Samaritans in play, and saving them both meant we could pick and choose what drugs we wanted to deal with, finding (and then sticking with) Mind-Phyre and Demons Kiss.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Walsh
Ireland
Lucan
Co Dublin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
Whenever playing Expatriette, I have never had any difficulty in throwing down stuff on the table just so that it can be sacrificed. Speed Loading is made for those kind of shenanigans, and she only needs one gun, but has loads of them.

Fixer should endeavour to keep Riveting Crane out so that Spite's damage negation is gone. Also, consider the benefits of playing Grease Gun every turn so that nobody is damaged as a result of using a Power.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris D
United States
Kansas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
When using the DW, it's best to get Spite to flip. It'll take 4 victoms to make this happen, which is where NightMist comes in handy. Her Astral Premonition will give you the deck manipulation to help get those Victims in play. You'll want to do it fast, because getting too many drugs in play can get nasty.
Once flipped, there will be plenty of fun things the heroes can do to get Spite in a tough situation. Firstly, abusing those pesky Bystanders. Discard 2 cards, then someone can draw a card, allowing a future player to also play a card. Sounds like a good deal! Is even better when the Potential Sidekick is present, giving even more card drawing fun.
Now I see that you dislike having your cards in play get bounced back into your hand. In a 4 hero game, this is 2 cards getting bounced. But look at what Setback can do! If he lets loose a Victim from the Safehouse, he'll be able to play a card. I recommend playing High Risk Behavior, thus allowing you to gain add a token to your pool. On his play phase, I suggest playing Looking Up. Now you can use it to dish out some incredible damage, which is even better if Spite didn't get his damage on power use drug. On Spite's turn, you can bounce them both back and do it all over again!
That's not the only non-painful bounce. Expatriette and Speed Loading works wonders. Allowing her to continue to play a Ammo at the start of her turn, but easily not get hurt by bouncing a card. If NightMist was probably just going to draw 2 on her turn, she could play MistForm to draw the 2 and bounce it back. Mr. Fixer also has Toolbox which was going to go back to hand anyway, so why not? The extra plays the heroes can get also really help lesson the pain it can cause.

How about the damage on power and discard 5 cards from the top of deck? NightMist, Mr. Fixer, and Expatriette all have equipment cards in their deck. Guess what Fixer can do? Play Salvage Yard and pull all those discarded equipment cards from the trash to the player's hand. Not only that, but NightMist can actually recover HP based on the number of cards in a hero trash.

Mynd-Phyre and Demon's Kiss typically only deal 1 damage on their own. He can get a +1 from a drug pretty easily. So basically, a chance of doing 2 damage to all. But guess what? Fixer has a Hoist Chain, thanks to the Extra plays everyone has, there will be plenty of cards to be destroyed, and Salvage Yard can retrieve any of those cards that happen to be equipment. Throw in Expatriette, Speed Loading and two Nitrogen Rounds, you'll easily cycle those to work well with Fixer's Hoist Chain, reducing Spite's damage by 2. If you do not have the damage increasing drug, then you shut down pretty much all his damage. Note that thanks to saving Victims and the Potential Sidekick, Expatriette is able to continue to draw cards and not having to keep drawing the same ammo card over and over again.

Spite has hit DR drug in play? Fixer's Riveting Crane can take care of that no problem, as it's only a DR2, and DW Fixer does a base of 3. Opening the hole for the rest of the band of heroes.

That's just a few things that I know of... Still a lot more, but I think you all probably get the picture.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brett Hudoba
United States
Bloomington
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, it's certainly clear I haven't analyzed this deeply enough. I think from my single play I was so demoralized by the time Spite flipped (with all five drugs active, BTW) that I didn't even consider the possible combos available to the Heroes because they weren't far from all being incapacitated. I may just have had an unlucky series of card draws, too, and things could progress quite differently on a subsequent attempt.

Even after dozens of plays I'm still discovering strategies with this game I'd never considered before, which is a testament to how excellent it is. Thanks all for the input!

cool
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.