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Subject: I have never hated a card before... but I'm pretty convinced that now I do rss

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Dave Chandler
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We have all heard complaints about powerful cards like Astroscript and Account Siphon... I even posted a thread asking for new/creative ways to deal with Siphon as I was bored of the traditional ones (and disagree with the effectiveness of a few of those anyway)

but I never hated those cards. They're powerful but encourage play. There are thought games that both sides need to play to pull them off / prevent them from landing. Astroscript encourages running on remotes (something I'm always fond of). Account siphon requires planning in all phases, how do you manage runs on HQ before someone's sprung it? How do you manage your credit pool? What are your recovery strategies? I'm not terribly fond of how these cards make for a similar experience... there's a certain lack of creativity that they encourage, but I don't hate that. It doesn't negatively impact the game in general.

Black mail, IMO, does.

We've all seen "The Blackmail Deck" right? New Angeles + Activist Support + aesops gives the corp a bad pub free. Same old thing + Levy AR Lab means you get to play blackmail 18 times. Throw in R&D and HQ interfaces (often times on a personal workshop to make more out of that bad pub) and you're set. No ice breakers ever, you won't let ice get rezzed.


Now, I don't hate this card because it's overpowered. There are plenty of ways to counter this. I don't even think it's that strong a deck. Rush / FA decks don't hate it too much and boobytrapping R&D hurts it badly.

I hate it because if I wanted to play solitaire I'd play solitaire. There is zero interaction on either side here. Both sides are playing, for the most part, completely independently. Playing the BoringMail deck, you don't care much what the corp is doing, and as corp, you know that you can't trust your ice to save you. You don't even get to play games with Ash to protect agendas in remotes as they're just hitting R&D and HQ anyway.

Again it's not overpowered... it's just incredibly dull to play against. It's a style of game I hope does not continue going forward.
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Tommy Roman
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I agree with the general theme your discouraged about, but your forgetting that there are several cards which can be used to get rid of BP.

No BP, no BM. Oh, poop, I just made a pun.
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Wesley Kinslow
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I kind of agree that Blackmail is the worst. Completely non-interactive and against the spirit of the game.
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Michael Redston
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Caprice to the rescue!

...or just remove BP.
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Jacek Wieszaczewski
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djc6535 wrote:
You don't even get to play games with Ash to protect agendas in remotes as they're just hitting R&D and HQ anyway.

You can put Ash on R&D or HQ
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Dirk Tebben
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I substantially agree with this, and I'd add that if FFG ever prints a way for runners to tutor events or non-Connection resources, the Blackmail deck will be extremely overpowered.

Edit: Logos doesn't count.
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I feel the same way with the Power Shutdown/Scorch decks. I'm glad this isn't all that competitive unless it takes someone by surprise.

I'm currently playing this deck and it felt pretty dull, as a runner.. just assembling the pieces with massive card draw and hoping to get my Interfaces out before the first Blackmail run. My opponent was amused, but I can't imagine it'd be that fun to be on the receiving end.

Btw, I shutdown the FA/Rush's with The Source :]

Another big weakness of this deck is if the corp obviously will not be doing much with its money due to lack of ICE rezzing. It's just gonna accumulate and accumulate... and if it happens to be a Midseasons/Sea Source/Scorch deck, then the Runner's gonna have a bad time unless those Plascretes are out. The Corp can even recur the Scorches using Jackson.

Not sure what the corp can do if it doesn't have the Scorch option though.

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Lysander
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That's a three card combo to give the corp BP, unless you're counting on the corp to give itself BP.

...In which case, it's no coincidence the Bad Publicity-themed corp has a way to rez ice outside of during a run! (It's as though FFG planned it this way...)
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I disagree, so long as the power level is moderate the card provides a meaningful counter balance to bad publicity beyond credits. A deck focused on BM is not going to be unstoppable and has to give up many tools that runners typically use.

It really isn't any different than Sea Source, Scorch, Scorch. That isn't really interactive either, but it serves a purpose so long as it is not dominating the game.
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Fluff Da Sheep
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Blackmail is a stupid card, and it should not have made it into the game. This was... pretty obvious from the moment it first got spoiled, because a Blackmail Deck would either work and it would be the most awful thing ever, or it wouldn't work and the card would hardly ever get played.
 
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Tom Keaten
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Never fear, the Amazon Industrial Zone is here!

I have the strong desire to splash this in many a deck, just to foil people who intend to solitaire.
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Dirk Tebben
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Jetfire wrote:
It really isn't any different than Sea Source, Scorch, Scorch. That isn't really interactive either, but it serves a purpose so long as it is not dominating the game.


That's a reasonable comparison (although at least SEA Source requires the runner to have run, and not to be able to beat the trace), but Plascrete is a required card in runner decks mostly to prevent death by SE. I'd rather not see Elizabeth Mills become a required card in corp decks.
 
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Dave Chandler
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Lysander1 wrote:
That's a three card combo to give the corp BP, unless you're counting on the corp to give itself BP.

...In which case, it's no coincidence the Bad Publicity-themed corp has a way to rez ice outside of during a run! (It's as though FFG planned it this way...)


Sure, which means in a chaos theory deck with diesel and quality time it can take as long as the 3rd or 4th turn before they have it in place. All the while they're doing nothing but draw and gather creds to run it. During this time the corp can probably get an agenda off, maybe a 2nd. This puts the runner in trouble but I never was discussing exactly how strong the deck was. I don't hate strong cards. I hate cards that encourage 4 turns of absolutely nothing going on between the two players.

This is ... fun?
 
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General Norris
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Oooh, I know who you are playing with! He told me people got mad and insulted him for not playing a "real deck".

Personally, I'm switching to HB until it's safe to play GRNDL again
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Dave Chandler
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tommygunn2011 wrote:
I agree with the general theme your discouraged about, but your forgetting that there are several cards which can be used to get rid of BP.

No BP, no BM. Oh, poop, I just made a pun.


No, I'm not. I'm not discussing how difficult it is to counter this deck. I'm not saying "man this Black Mail deck is killing and there's no way to stop it"

I'm saying that it eliminates all interaction between the players.

So I play Elizabeth mills and get rid of the bad pub. Know what they do? They draw till they find the pieces to give it to me again (now just an activist support) or they levvy and then draw.

They're not running. They're not interacting with me. They're drawing drawing drawing so that they can find the card that lets them continue to not interact with me. Sure I can win in this scenario, I've slowed them down a lot. But I'm not concerned about how you beat this deck. I'm concerned about cards that enter the pool that encourage players to never do anything with each other.

It also severely limits the cardpool going forward. I'd have LOVED to have seen more runner cards that give the corp bad pub... but now, Blackmail makes them way too powerful / encourages an unfortunate style of play

Edit: Adding a TLDR: The response "Yes the game will be boring, but here's how you win that boring game" Doesn't really go that far with me.
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Dave Chandler
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General_Norris wrote:
Oooh, I know who you are playing with! He told me people got mad and insulted him for not playing a "real deck".

Personally, I'm switching to HB until it's same to play GRNDL again


Heh, there are a few people who run it... and I'm not mad, and I'm not going to insult others. It is very much a 'real' deck. I'm not in the business of telling other people how best to have their fun...

But I will concede every time I face it outside of tournament play. I don't do so angrily and I won't insult the person with the deck... but my casual time is too valuable to spend going through the motions for 45 minutes. I think it's better for both of us to find a different partner to play against. Whole point is to have fun.
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Matt - Conduit23
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I'm with you. I wish their playtesting would weed out more of these zero-interaction combos. Noise Workshop, Cerebral Imaging/Accelerated Diagnostics, Blackmail combo decks, .. And I don't think any of those decks are unstoppable, they just seem so counter to what makes Netrunner the best card game I've ever played.
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Dave Kudzma
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mdanuser wrote:
I'm with you. I wish their playtesting would weed out more of these zero-interaction combos. Noise Workshop, Cerebral Imaging/Accelerated Diagnostics, Blackmail combo decks, .. And I don't think any of those decks are unstoppable, they just seem so counter to what makes Netrunner the best card game I've ever played.


To play devil's advocate, I'm going to bet there are some players that either love that style of play or some that wish the game had more options like it.

As someone pointed out, there are cards like AIZ, and more to come I'm sure.
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Richard Roe
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I've played against the Blackmail deck, I don't think it'll be around very long. It already doesn't hold up very well and the meta hasn't even had to respond to it. Lot's of things ruin Blackmail deck, the easiest of which is just install several one ice servers. It can play Blackmail 18 times but quickly enough from what I've seen. It hates upgrades. It hates ambushes(but who doesn't). Oversight AI and Boiroid Efficiency Research wreck it's face. If the corp isn't rezzing ice, they have plenty of money to tag 'n bag if that's their plan. It's funny to see it work sometimes but ultimately I think this is going to be a non-issue.
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Zak Jarvis
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Does it stop interaction? Doesn't that rely upon the runner never running without a Blackmail card?

What happens if you install and advance cards in your ICE-d remote? The runner might steal an agenda with a blackmail run if they guess right, but keep doing it and they'll soon have to run without a Blackmail surely? Doesn't the deck set-up you describe simply make the corporation play more aggressively (in terms of installing and advancing agendas/traps) than they might like? What if you install your agendas behind ICE and don't advance them? Do the same with your assets too, obviously. Now where will the runner spend their limited Blackmails? Again, doesn't it just force you into a style of play you weren't intending on, and aren't there many other cards that do this? You could always just keep running and scoring agendas with no meat/tag defence in place versus 'SEA Source', 'Scorched Earth' and 'Punitive Counterstrike'. You could run with no cards in hand versus Jinteki servers. But this would obviously be silly, and you adjust your play to take account of the enemy effects. Isn't it silly to expect to be able to play your 'normal' corporation game versus Blackmail with no allowances for its effects?

I agree with your sentiment that solitaire isn't fun, but I don't see how the card eliminates interaction unless you let it by refusing to play around it. Then again I haven't played against it. What has happened when you have played wide against it? What has happened when you have given the runner a choice between agenda and asset/trap? How fast can they recur 'Blackmail' cards if you force them to keep running?
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Michael Redston
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EverRich wrote:
I've played against the Blackmail deck, I don't think it'll be around very long. It already doesn't hold up very well and the meta hasn't even had to respond to it. Lot's of things ruin Blackmail deck, the easiest of which is just install several one ice servers. It can play Blackmail 18 times but quickly enough from what I've seen. It hates upgrades. It hates ambushes(but who doesn't). Oversight AI and Boiroid Efficiency Research wreck it's face. If the corp isn't rezzing ice, they have plenty of money to tag 'n bag if that's their plan. It's funny to see it work sometimes but ultimately I think this is going to be a non-issue.

Is anyone actually reading this thread? OP didn't say this deck is broken, he said it's boring to play against.

To OP: To each his own. Personally I find playing against FA/SE/Andysucker/Katman boring.
 
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Peter O
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kroen wrote:

Is anyone actually reading this thread? OP didn't say this deck is broken, he said it's boring to play against.



I'm guessing their point is that it will be hated out of the environment and therefore it won't be such a big deal. I don't think they're saying he shouldn't have an opinion on it. Just that once the novelty wears off it will go away.
 
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Josh C
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I played the AD combo deck this weekend. While it was mostly terrible, there was one game where my opponent and I sat across from each other with him mostly not running for the entire match. Once he pulled his cash off Kati, I had 41 credits and he had 40 credits and a link. He didn't run on me almost at all... and it was one of the most intense, interactive games of Netrunner I've ever played,

You see, we both knew what was up. So the interaction wasn't "How do I break your ice and access a few cards?" it was "How do I ensure that, given the game state, I can ensure victory?" I fail to see how one player setting up a puzzle and daring the other to solve it isn't interactive. Sure, it's a different kind of interaction, but I think it can still be an incredibly exciting game. Just because our cards on the table weren't directly doing things to each other didn't mean our cards weren't *interacting*.

I've long since lost sympathy for people who claim "Card X is ruining the game" since they've been proven wrong, eventually, on literally every count. Yes, Blackmail is a thing. So... adapt. Midseason destroys a Blackmail deck (honestly, NBN is so ubiquitous in my meta, nobody has even tried a dedicated Blackmail deck yet) and forces interaction again. So would running some traps. You can splash Ghost Branch into any deck and give them a few tags they might have trouble dealing with.

I think the question we have to ask here is "Why are you letting your opponent play a game that doesn't force the kind of interaction you want?" If that's the game you want to play, *make* them play it!
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Richard Roe
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Yes, I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't speaking to the point of the OP. I think it's a novelty that will go away on it's own. I personally enjoyed the games I've played against it, it's an interesting puzzle to figure out. Maybe I've played less than optimal versions of the deck, but I haven't lost to it yet. Rather than wanting to quit my response is more of a "you go ahead and play solitaire over there, I'm just going to be over here winning".

tranenturm wrote:
kroen wrote:

Is anyone actually reading this thread? OP didn't say this deck is broken, he said it's boring to play against.



I'm guessing there point is that it will be hated out of the environment and therefore it won't be such a big deal. I don't think they're saying he shouldn't have an opinion on it. Just that once the novelty wears off it will go away.
 
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I actually find it refreshing to play against. It takes a very different approach by the corporation and can be quite challenging. At least it's something different from Account Siphon (and recursion).

Also, Astro-Biotics plays almost as non-interactive, but I enjoy the challenge in that as well.
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