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Subject: Some potential tips for those pushing on to Chapter 2 for the first time rss

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Tim Westfall
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I write this in hopes that it might help others who have finished Chpt 1, but might or will have a batch of new question when attacking Chpt 2 (due to newness or time since Chpt1), and that it might help reduce perusing for rules or 'trump factors' from the Storybook.

Chpt 2 brought many new questions to the table for us, that I/we had somehow missed from experiencing Chpt 1, and even reading the rulebook a few times before our first play. There are lots of little notes that are 'hidden' at various places in the rulebook.

So, the following is a list of questions that we were wondering during setup, and during play of the 2nd chapter. I answered most on my own after digging in the rulebook or perusing these forums on BGG. And, there are still some unanswered questions (in bold), if anyone has a few spare moments to help out, I'll edit this post with the proper answers with some feedback.

There has been some feedback for some of the questions or concerns I posted here, so they are now integrated or summarized in each numbered section from my original post

Our group questions were:

1) Carry Over from previous chapter?
What abilities and starting items?
This one was somewhat straight forward... Near the end of the rulebook, there's a small section of notes for 'Campaigns'. All you need to know is there. However, as seen in the forums and elsewhere, it's implied or recommended that if a game has some house rules for us OCD people out there, this one might be one of them We decided to add, as a house rule, keeping 'Trick' cards, since there are basically 'small instants' that can be used. We've found through 4 chapters now, that the cheese wheel ticks away quite quickly, and we've barely had the luxury of searching amongst our group. So, since the majority of Search cards are physical items (vs the other Tricks and instant bad events), we loosely interpret the rule to mean 'Search cards that are physical items'. Pick on me if you want

Feedback from thread: none

2) The Storybook storyline mentions Filch, but picking characters... Are we only supposed to pick 3 of the 4 from Chpt 1 until we unlock more? If Lily is stuck at the end, who gets to play her character when she's freed? Group choice, or did I miss a suggestion or official rule?
All it says loosely is place the 3 mice and gives a little insight on needing a tinkerer.
Later storyline talks as if Filch is there. If the party never had him of the 3 that were chosen, how is he there? I'm wondering as group leader for my family as I'm kind of GM'ing the game for them, and I had two little boys ask me, why is Filch there (because we never chose him as 1 of the 3 to start Chpt2?) I rechecked the blurbs in the Storybook and it has 4 mice talking besides Lily. I guess they were 'in the shadows'? Was Filch supposed to automatically be 1 of the 3?
Well, to my best knowledge, I assume we can pick whatever mice we want for each adventure, otherwise the rulebook would say place exactly 'x,y, and z' mice' in the beginning?
But, after playing 4 Chapters, I would assume for first time through each chapter, you just pick the mice that have statements to say during the intro 'read aloud' paragraphs. So, that's how we are continuing.

Feedback from thread: Assumptions confirmed. Just imagine that all 6 mice are there, and you can just pick whoever you want. (I'd personally recommend for first timers though, the characters mentioned in the character intros)

3) How to deal with Kitchen Area after defeating all Minions there?
The Storybook doesn't seem to cover this?, but the basic rules of the game state that the color of the tile connectors have to match to allow passage between them. And the Storybook specifically says that you don't use the 'flop side' of the Crystal Tunnel area... which means we have to travel back down from the kitchen and into an area we already cleared. Which bring up a whole bunch of new questions? Do we respawn minions in the middle tile we already cleared? I'm leaning towards no based on a few other threads for creating an 'Encounter'. But do we have to 'Explore' to get back to an area we discovered?
So, this is still unanswered in my head, until I read something more definitive that I've missed.
For now, we will treat each explored tile as if we can enter if for free, don't have to 'explore' to find it, and only have to worry about the cheese wheel filling up/time ticking? And, are we allowed to 'search' a previous room again as we pass through it a 2nd time?

Feedback from the thread: Confirmed that this is mentioned in other FAQs and by author in other threads. You just go back through a previous area without any 'encounter' cards engaging... the Cheese Wheel still ticks though

How to deal with the final room (Crystal Tunnels room)
4) What happens if there's a bunch on Roaches on the entry space (as created by special rules by the Chapterbook, that specifically put roaches there)? The basic rulebook doesn't cover this? I can only see it mention exploring and how all party members go to the new entry space. I've seen the converse covered of how spots fill up and minion placement, but not this. I assume everyone's been just dealing with overflowing onto the nearby spaces closest to the entryway. If so, just decided by group entry?

Feedback from the thread: It looks like I was doing things wrong with the rules. Due to a chapter rule, I had places mice at the entrance of the last room, but never had them be active until the gang got to the room. It was fun to learn and know that all the tiles are active at the same time (I learned this additionally through playing chapter 4 tonight), and the roaches should have headed towards Lilly as soon as they spawned, while the gang was still in the first room.

5) Can the Large Minions 'block' movement from other minions? I had to look this up again, and yep, having 4 small in a space, or 1 large in a space can block movement of BOTH mice and minions. This is awesome to know, as we had Skitter-Skat in the 'middle' area blocking all minions behind him, acting as a bottleneck... highly recommended if you can get that minion there, 'reverse pinned' in a way, allowing all focus on a large minion, without worry of others attacking. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Feedback from the thread: Confirmed, large minions can bottleneck hallways. Use this to your advantage whenever you can!

6) Important note for this Chapter. The Win or Lose conditions are slightly different that the 'normal' Chapter end conditions. Aka, you have 'unlimited' time to defeat the minions in the final room, as long as you free Lily from the trap prior to progressing 'the pages' to 'The End'. Therefore, run to save her first if you're near filling the cheese wheel, with 1 'page' left. We had to reread that to make sure we were still in it. We almost put away the game, with our last Surge, thinking we had lost with a few minions in the room (indirectly and wrongly assume form the 'win' blurb)

Feedback from the thread: Looks like I was playing this wrong also. I had misinterpreted the phrase 'rescue Lilly' as getting her out of the trap. This is incorrect. 'Rescue Lilly' means 'Release Lilly from the Trap' + 'Destroy all minions in the final room'. It does not mean 'Rescue Lilly from the trap', which would have a slightly different 'Defeat Condition' interpretation.

Thanks gang!
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Ray Greenley
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Sparkles wrote:

2) The Storybook storyline mentions Filch, but picking characters... Are we only supposed to pick 3 of the 4 from Chpt 1 until we unlock more? If Lily is stuck at the end, who gets to play her character when she's freed? Group choice, or did I miss a suggestion or official rule?
All it says loosely is place the 3 mice and gives a little insight on needing a tinkerer.
Later storyline talks as if Filch is there. If the party never had him of the 3 that were chosen, how is he there? I'm wondering as group leader for my family as I'm kind of GM'ing the game for them, and I had two little boys ask me, why is Filch there (because we never chose him as 1 of the 3 to start Chpt2?) I rechecked the blurbs in the Storybook and it has 4 mice talking besides Lily. I guess they were 'in the shadows'? Was Filch supposed to automatically be 1 of the 3?
Well, to my best knowledge, I assume we can pick whatever mice we want for each adventure, otherwise the rulebook would say place exactly 'x,y, and z' mice' in the beginning?
But, after playing 4 Chapters, I would assume for first time through each chapter, you just pick the mice that have statements to say during the intro 'read aloud' paragraphs. So, that's how we are continuing.

The story is for flavor only and doesn't impact game rules. Pick which mice you want and imagine that the mice are progressing as a party even though you're only playing with a subset. What plot reason would there be for leaving some mice behind? How could the 'catch up' later? The story assumes all mice are always together, but the game was designed for a certain number of mice per Chapter. Feel free to use whatever criteria you want when picking your mice for a chapter so long as they fit within the chapter guidelines. :^)
Sparkles wrote:
3) How to deal with Kitchen Area after defeating all Minions there?
The Storybook doesn't seem to cover this?, but the basic rules of the game state that the color of the tile connectors have to match to allow passage between them. And the Storybook specifically says that you don't use the 'flop side' of the Crystal Tunnel area... which means we have to travel back down from the kitchen and into an area we already cleared. Which bring up a whole bunch of new questions? Do we respawn minions in the middle tile we already cleared? I'm leaning towards no based on a few other threads for creating an 'Encounter'. But do we have to 'Explore' to get back to an area we discovered?
So, this is still unanswered in my head, until I read something more definitive that I've missed.
For now, we will treat each explored tile as if we can enter if for free, don't have to 'explore' to find it, and only have to worry about the cheese wheel filling up/time ticking? And, are we allowed to 'search' a previous room again as we pass through it a 2nd time?

These questions have been answered by the designer and I think are in the FAQ. You do NOT redraw an encounter card when entering a previously-explored tile. However, you may NOT search again on a tile on which you previously had a successful search, even if you're re-exploring it later.

Also the rules only allow moving between tiles by using the Explore action, so there is no other way to do so. However, it's a pretty trivial thing to do, so it shouldn't be a problem. Just be sure that you are adding the cheese to the minion wheel whenever you wrap around the initiative track!
Sparkles wrote:
How to deal with the final room (Crystal Tunnels room)
4) What happens if there's a bunch on Roaches on the entry space (as created by special rules by the Chapterbook, that specifically put roaches there)? The basic rulebook doesn't cover this? I can only see it mention exploring and how all party members go to the new entry space. I've seen the converse covered of how spots fill up and minion placement, but not this. I assume everyone's been just dealing with overflowing onto the nearby spaces closest to the entryway. If so, just decided by group entry?

I can't imagine how there could ever be a 'bunch' of roaches on the entry space into the Crystal Tunnels in Chapter 2. You'd need to place minions from an encounter card (one roach), immediately surge (second roach), then clear ALL the minions from the tile with one or two mice from the main group and explore with the final mouse from the other group all before the roaches got to move. I'm about 99.9% sure that's impossible.

Regardless, the rule about placing minions is that if there is not a legal place to put them on the board, they are simply not placed. This can work out well when small minions are covering all the entry spaces and you're directed to place a spider or centipede!
Sparkles wrote:
5) Can the Large Minions 'block' movement from other minions? I had to look this up again, and yep, having 4 small in a space, or 1 large in a space can block movement of BOTH mice and minions. This is awesome to know, as we had Skitter-Skat in the 'middle' area blocking all minions behind him, acting as a bottleneck... highly recommended if you can get that minion there, 'reverse pinned' in a way, allowing all focus on a large minion, without worry of others attacking. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Yes, large minions block movement from small minions. However in the case of the crystal tunnels this doesn't necessarily work out well since the rats that spawn on the side will go after Lily before they'll bother with the rescuing mice! I suppose that's presuming you didn't somehow get a mouse up to free Lily and then got her and the rescuing mouse back down the tunnel before the rats or Skitter-Clak could get in range to attack. I think that's very unlikely, though.
Sparkles wrote:
6) Important note for this Chapter. The Win or Lose conditions are slightly different that the 'normal' Chapter end conditions. Aka, you have 'unlimited' time to defeat the minions in the final room, as long as you free Lily from the trap prior to progressing 'the pages' to 'The End'. Therefore, run to save her first if you're near filling the cheese wheel, with 1 'page' left. We had to reread that to make sure we were still in it. We almost put away the game, with our last Surge, thinking we had lost with a few minions in the room (indirectly and wrongly assume form the 'win' blurb)

I think you're interpreting this wrong. According to the Victory Condition section, Lily is only considered 'rescued' if the mice release her AND defeat the minions. And the defeat condition states that you lose if the hourglass marker hits the Chapter End marker before she is 'rescued'. If the hourglass marker hits the 'Chapter End' marker before you've killed all the minions on her tile, you lose.
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Matt Bowles
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RMGreen wrote:

Sparkles wrote:
How to deal with the final room (Crystal Tunnels room)
4) What happens if there's a bunch on Roaches on the entry space (as created by special rules by the Chapterbook, that specifically put roaches there)? The basic rulebook doesn't cover this? I can only see it mention exploring and how all party members go to the new entry space. I've seen the converse covered of how spots fill up and minion placement, but not this. I assume everyone's been just dealing with overflowing onto the nearby spaces closest to the entryway. If so, just decided by group entry?

I can't imagine how there could ever be a 'bunch' of roaches on the entry space into the Crystal Tunnels in Chapter 2. You'd need to place minions from an encounter card (one roach), immediately surge (second roach), then clear ALL the minions from the tile with one or two mice from the main group and explore with the final mouse from the other group all before the roaches got to move. I'm about 99.9% sure that's impossible.

Regardless, the rule about placing minions is that if there is not a legal place to put them on the board, they are simply not placed. This can work out well when small minions are covering all the entry spaces and you're directed to place a spider or centipede!


I believe the intent of this question was about having space on the entry tile for minions and mice. It sounds like you, Sparkles, are placing the minions first before the mice. But perhaps not.

From my few plays I'm pretty sure you need to place the mice, and then treat the minion start spaces as if they only have so much room left.
In most chapters and tiles within, you will have 4 mice and so the "entry space" has no room for minions and they will all start on the distant minion start spaces.
 
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Ray Greenley
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I could very well be wrong, but my suspicion is that Tim was not activating the roaches or Lily until the rest of the party reached her tile. In this case the roaches would build up on that entry space creating the problem he's talking about. But perhaps we'll find out if he replies back. :^)
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Matt Bowles
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RMGreen wrote:
I could very well be wrong, but my suspicion is that Tim was not activating the roaches or Lily until the rest of the party reached her tile. In this case the roaches would build up on that entry space creating the problem he's talking about. But perhaps we'll find out if he replies back. :^)


Hmm.. true. I hadn't thought of that. It's very possible for that chapter I guess.
 
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Ken Marley
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RMGreen wrote:
I could very well be wrong, but my suspicion is that Tim was not activating the roaches or Lily until the rest of the party reached her tile. In this case the roaches would build up on that entry space creating the problem he's talking about. But perhaps we'll find out if he replies back. :^)


Yes, this is probably what he means.

Tim the roaches on Lily's tile and Lily activate and attack each turn! There is no way for them to build up since they will all move toward Lilly every turn, and she will shoot them with her bow every turn.
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Tim Westfall
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Ray, you were spot on, on your most recent suspicion...
(roaches places on the entry/spawning spot way before we got to the final room)

I guess I was doing it incorrectly, though?
Do tiles 'activate' before we get to them?

I had in my head that the 'special chapter rules' say to block the placement of a small minions through the chapter, and instead place a small minion (or roach) as far from Lily each time this happens. I read this as basically, eventually 3 roaches from the 3 'encounters' from the 3 tiles prior to the last tile... you'd have 3 roaches at the entry of the last tile (due to 3 encounters up to that point, and the roaches should be placed as far from Lily as possible, which is the entry location, yes?)

Ken's response seems appropriate though...
I guess they would charge towards Lily as soon as they are placed while the troops are going through 6-8 initiative track rounds on the 3 prior tiles.

I guess I had just assumed the roaches/small minions would sit there and wait, because it would seem kind of terrible if you play the whole chapter racing to get to Lily, and she's eaten by roaches even before you get there due to some bad dice rolls with 3 small minions headed towards her.

This seemed too far fetched, instinctively, in my mind, to have her deal with this, while a non-Tinkering party had to go through 3 rooms to get to her, but I guess that's how you're supposed to play it?

Brain fart for not having the minions in the last room start to move towards Lily?

I'd love to find a note in the rulebook that says 'tiles don't activate until you reach them' kind of thing (and therefore the minions would not rush Lily until we got there)
 
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Kyle Reeser
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Sparkles wrote:
I guess I had just assumed the roaches/small minions would sit there and wait, because it would seem kind of terrible if you play the whole chapter racing to get to Lily, and she's eaten by roaches even before you get there due to some bad dice rolls with 3 small minions headed towards her.


Yes, but consider the alternative--you only play the three rescuing mice (putting roaches on Lily's tile as needed, but not allowing anything on said tile to move or attack until the other mice reach it) and put all this time and effort into reaching her. You finally get to her tile...only to have the roaches, and probably some of the rat warriors and/or Skitter-Clak, swarm her and take her out before the other mice can really do anything about it (which isn't unlikely, in my somewhat limited experience).
 
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Michael Bishop
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Quote:
I guess I was doing it incorrectly, though?
Do tiles 'activate' before we get to them?


Yes. There's nothing in the rulebook that points this out, but there's nothing in the rulebook that says this doesn't happen. Lily's in the game, she's just on a different tile and everything on that tile "happens" just like the tile with the party members.

Story-wise, Lily got stuck in a trap. She can't move, but the "neutral" minions (roaches) have discovered here. She has to use her wits and her bow to fend them off until help arrives.

Eventually, help does arrive in the form of your mice, but unfortunately, the "bad" minions happen upon her at the same time. You've got rat warriors, Skitter-Klak, and maybe even some roaches to contend with. You're fighting to free her before the rats overwhelm her.

Sure you can lose due to bad luck, but since everything in this game involves rolling dice, luck is always a factor. I've only lost Chapter 2 once and it wasn't due to Lily. A centipede showed up during a surge and flattened Nez with a nasty roll before Nez even got a turn.

So yeah, make up the initiative track, follow the special rules about playing roaches and play Lily's tile when their turn comes up.
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Tim Westfall
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Thanks for the feedback on these items, gang. It helped me, and hopefully some others is they read this thread going into Chpt 2 as a new-ish player, like myself.

I'll update the OP shortly to reflect and re-emphasize the notes.
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Ray Greenley
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Yup, there are no special rules about figures on other tiles because you don't do anything different. Whenever you place a minion anywhere on the board you add it's card to the initiative track (if it's not already there), and when it's turn comes in the initiative order you activate it. Lily has to hold off the roaches until the rest of the mice can get to her and free her (which is not very difficult given she starts with a cheese and Intense Cowering and can attack them at range except for the first one). Try it again and I think the chapter will make more sense. :^)
 
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Tim Westfall
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Thanks Ray. After playing Chapter 4 tonight, it makes more sense. I wish they had a small blurb in Chapter 2 that kind of explains the same thing so that I had all rooms active. I just had always assumed that things become alive when your main troop reaches a room, but it's for any mouse in any room.
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bruinrefugee
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Quick question:

We're playing that the three mice can't explore to move to a new tile until lily beats the roach so that there are no minions. Is that wrong? If it is, do the initiative cards for both tiles get reshuffled with each change of tile for the three?

Thanks!
 
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