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Subject: Will Account Siphon ever fall out of favor? rss

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Matt - Conduit23
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I know, I know, another "wah, card X is ruining the game" thread. That's not what I want this to be!

I'm honestly curious what you guys think of the current trend of Account Siphon in literally every deck, and what it would take (without errata/banning/limiting it) to change the course for the runners.

It's been about a month, I think, since AS really took hold of the entire game. I cannot remember a game I've played in the last month that didn't have AS (including when I was running, because I'll be damned if I'm not going to play it!) Faction/runner does not matter. Every Shaper, 3 Siphons. Every Anarch, 3 Siphons.

I came to accept it, always ICE'd the hell out of HQ, kept unrezzed assets/upgrades around, etc, but after a month of constantly having my money and soul siphoned, I've finally taken my grievances to The Internet. If I'm already tired of Siphons Everywhere, what will the game be like when the Criminal box hits? I'm excited to play with all the new toys, too! But I imagine the trend of 3x Siphons + 3x SOT in every deck will continue or increase.

So what would it take for Siphon to fall out of favor? Some intense form of tag punishment? Some crazy HQ upgrade? The Professor becoming the dominant runner? (Sidenote: I guess I did play one game where I wasn't Siphoned to death in the last month, because I remember when I saw The Professor across the table I was so incredibly relieved because I knew he couldn't possibly be playing any Siphons.)

Should I just play counter-siphon troll decks with 3x Scorch and 3x Closed Accounts no matter what faction? Should I find people to play Highlander with? (Actually that sounds fun anyway, if anyone is interested.) Anyway, I know it's been beaten to death since the game launched, but it seems more ubiquitous than ever, so how's everyone feeling about Account Siphon now?
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General Norris
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Siphon isn't common around here, the most common Runners are Kate, Kit and Chaos Theory and only the latter plays it. Andromeda and Gabe are now uncommon.

Anyways, it's fine by me. Dropping a big piece of ICE in HQ is more than enough to stop it and worthwhile on its own so I don't play around it more than I play around Inside Job or Datasucker.
 
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I think it will fall out of favor in Shaper/Anarch if/when Corps start defending against it sufficiently. There's a lot you could have done with that 8-12 influence. But, no, I don't think it will ever stop being a 3x in Criminal decks.
 
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I find it comforting that a select few cards from the Core Set will always be relevant.
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Greg Nordeng
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I agree that Siphon is more prevalent than ever. I am guilty of this, I did my best to make a Noise deck that was competitive without it, but I begrudgingly settled on it being the strongest play style for him.

That being said, I think it's more manageable than ever for the corp. I pretty much play against all runner Identities (except Professor) as if they play Siphon. My first initiative is almost always get centrals Iced, different corps cope differently with Siphon, but as long as there is a reliable plan in place, it's not to be feared too much imo.
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Alex Rockwell
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mdanuser wrote:
Anyway, I know it's been beaten to death since the game launched, but it seems more ubiquitous than ever, so how's everyone feeling about Account Siphon now?


My feelings are that it is more omni-present than ever, and that they are also often backed up by Same Old Things for even more siphoning, and that the result is that it makes me not want to play Netrunner nearly as much as I would if Account Siphon was not a card.

I feel like the prevalence of Siphon makes it very hard to play a deck focusing on remote servers. Making and using a remote server SHOULD (imo), be at the heart of the game. Instead, it feels like you cant focus on remote server strategies because they'll just siphon you and then run it while you cant rez the ice there. As a result, the only thing that people do in remote servers anymore is put a SanSan there. There isnt really any risk of putting a SanSan there, because even if you are broke and they run it, they still pay 5 to kill it. And if you actually pay to rez it, then you are getting at least 1 use from it. (And it even helps defend against Siphons).

When the only thing that remote servers are good for is housing a SanSan (or Jackson), the game loses a ton of what 'should' happen in Netrunner. Things like Advancing agendas or traps.


All viable corp decks are one of two varieties:
1) SanSan + Fast advance. Never put an agenda in a remote, just fast advance them all form hand. The only servers that really matter are HQ (because siphon) and R&D (because the runner can try and R&D lock so you cant get the agendas to fast advance).

2) "Kill" combo decks. Tag + Scorches/whatever. Midseason + Psycho (thats basically a kill combo, but its for 7 points isntead of dealing damage).


The main reason why this is the case is because Account Siphon. Did you want to go Install-Advance-Advance in a remote server? Hit you with siphons, go in for free. You then cant even pay for it if it was a trap.




I know that everyone has read this all before, but it has not stopped being true, and it seems to be getting MORE true over time.

The corp economy is getting better? Siphon harder.
The corp has dangerous things they could do with a remote? Siphon harder.
The corp is going to get Caprice Nisei, who is really scary? Siphon harder. If she is on HQ, install sneakdoor and run to kill her.


It is frustrating. I would love to just be able to play the game as corp and if I have money, know that I will actually be able to rez my remote server ice, so that I could actually try to maybe put an agenda in it, EVER! I would love to be able to play a game as runner and not have the plan be "Siphon you a lot".


There we go, rant over.

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Aaron Freeman
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Someday Anarch will get a super duper event.

But honestly, I think they are beginning to print Neutral cards with influence that are decent/good specifically to discourage people from going all in on 4 influence toys like Account Siphon.

Time will tell. But I think Criminals will almost always run at least 2 Siphons, unless they are a crazy resource brand of Crims. I don't think every faction will always run AS.

Edit- Or rather I should say I hope they won't. I do share some of the concerns of Alex, but I am confident that there will be some kind of an answer in the next year. If that is another crazy awesome combo/event/hardware/program or if it is AS being banned/restricted we shall see.
 
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Stephen Smith
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I think a big part of it is that so many Corps fail to punish tags. Just play Closed Accounts for 1 influence and Siphon becomes a lot less scary. If the Runner is forced to spend 2 actions and 4 credits removing tags, then Siphon only nets an average of 2 credits per click - no better than Opus - and even that is assuming it's totally free to get into HQ.
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Lluluien
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Nords3x4 wrote:
I agree that Siphon is more prevalent than ever. I am guilty of this, I did my best to make a Noise deck that was competitive without it, but I begrudgingly settled on it being the strongest play style for him.

That being said, I think it's more manageable than ever for the corp. I pretty much play against all runner Identities (except Professor) as if they play Siphon. My first initiative is almost always get centrals Iced, different corps cope differently with Siphon, but as long as there is a reliable plan in place, it's not to be feared too much imo.


Speaking of Noise, I think the best answer to this question is to consider how creatively the design team managed to nerf him enough with Jackson Howard that he went for several months being relatively unplayed before people started exploring with him again.

I don't know what the corresponding card that might do the same thing to Account Siphon could be, but I'm confident that if FFG decides we need it, they will find it. I think the Corp has become sufficiently more powerful in this cycle that I don't think Account Siphon is as broken as I once did, but I definitely agree that I'm sick of playing against it in spite of that!
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Alexfrog wrote:
Making and using a remote server SHOULD (imo), be at the heart of the game.


This.

There's so many fun-looking and fun-sounding assets out there but maintaining multiple light/medium defended remotes is just impossible. There's more reasons for this than just Account Siphon, but it is a big one.
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teknic wrote:
I think a big part of it is that so many Corps fail to punish tags. Just play Closed Accounts for 1 influence and Siphon becomes a lot less scary.


You mean the tags they cleared with Lawyer Up? Sticking the Runner with tags has been getting harder, not easier. I wouldn't blame the Corp for this.
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Alejandro G.
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No. Will always be around.
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Greg Nordeng
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DrTall wrote:
Alexfrog wrote:
Making and using a remote server SHOULD (imo), be at the heart of the game.


This.

There's so many fun-looking and fun-sounding assets out there but maintaining multiple light/medium defended remotes is just impossible. There's more reasons for this than just Account Siphon, but it is a big one.


Wow, I am surprised people feel this way. Maybe try new corp ideas if you are having this problem. I have been able to mitigate siphon problems to almost 0, and am certainly having no problems having 1 or 2 strong remotes built.
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João Almeida
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As the cardpool grows, you have more in-faction options, therefore, you can afford more expensive out-of-faction options, like Siphon. The true issue here is that there's nothing expensive from Shaper that Anarch wants (Tinkering? pff) and there's nothing expensive from Anarch that Shaper wants (Morning Star? pff).

The only way to make Siphon less common (without an errata, which I agree it deserves) is to make better high influence Shaper and Anarch cards.

Alexfrog wrote:
All viable corp decks are one of two varieties:
1) SanSan + Fast advance. Never put an agenda in a remote, just fast advance them all form hand. The only servers that really matter are HQ (because siphon) and R&D (because the runner can try and R&D lock so you cant get the agendas to fast advance).

2) "Kill" combo decks. Tag + Scorches/whatever. Midseason + Psycho (thats basically a kill combo, but its for 7 points isntead of dealing damage).


There are people winning tournaments with trap based decks (like Jinteki and brain-dmg-based-HB). Those decks use remotes.
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Matt - Conduit23
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Nords3x4 wrote:
I pretty much play against all runner Identities (except Professor) as if they play Siphon.


Definitely. When I caught myself ICE-ing HQ first (and leaving R&D open) against Shapers, I knew something was up..

Alexfrog wrote:
I feel like the prevalence of Siphon makes it very hard to play a deck focusing on remote servers. Making and using a remote server SHOULD (imo), be at the heart of the game. Instead, it feels like you cant focus on remote server strategies because they'll just siphon you and then run it while you cant rez the ice there. As a result, the only thing that people do in remote servers anymore is put a SanSan there. There isnt really any risk of putting a SanSan there, because even if you are broke and they run it, they still pay 5 to kill it. And if you actually pay to rez it, then you are getting at least 1 use from it. (And it even helps defend against Siphons).


It is a bit of a vicious cycle, isn't it? SanSan makes me want to play Whizzard w/Siphons. Getting Siphon'd makes me want to play SanSan in every deck.

teknic wrote:
I think a big part of it is that so many Corps fail to punish tags. Just play Closed Accounts for 1 influence and Siphon becomes a lot less scary. If the Runner is forced to spend 2 actions and 4 credits removing tags, then Siphon only nets an average of 2 credits per click - no better than Opus - and even that is assuming it's totally free to get into HQ.


That's true, and I think I am going to start running at least 2x Closed Accounts in every deck for a while. But even if it's only 2 creds per click if they clear tags, there's also the whole making the corp go broke and getting into wherever they want without any risk thing.
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Aaron Freeman
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Well I am not sure that is fair. If they are running Lawyer Up they are not going to pull a x6 or x16 siphon on you, because they will likely run out of Lawyer Ups.

But I agree, it can be tricky to always necessarily nail the runner with a tag. There has been myriad discussion on the subject and it will continue to be a key discussion point, but I think part of the key might be some of these underutilized assets.

I also think part of the reason fast advance is so competitive right now is because Account Siphon is so good. Maybe the Lunar Cycle will take measures to counter that.
 
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Zak Jarvis
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lluluien wrote:
I don't know what the corresponding card that might do the same thing to Account Siphon could be, but I'm confident that if FFG decides we need it, they will find it.


Cognitive Re-alignment Clinic
Haas-Bioroid (****)
Upgrade
Cost: 5
Trash: 0
"When the runner takes a tag during a run on this server, do one brain damage."
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Anon Y. Mous
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Hraklea wrote:
The only way to make Siphon less common (without an errata, which I agree it deserves) is to make better high influence Shaper and Anarch cards.


Power-level errata are terrible and I seriously hope Netrunner doesn't get any. A better approach would be to just ban it, maybe reprint a weaker version later.
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Happy to see that more and more people see that this card needs to be removed from the card poll as it hurts the game more than the deck variation it offers if at all.

It must be at least a year now that I'm crying OP but oh well...

This card single handedly sucks the fun out of the game because people need to play and create and fix their decks and playstyles to be able to withstand it. Even if they can do this and I'm not saying that it is uncounterable, it HURTS the game. It boxes in the deck construction and never allows certain ideas, cards and mechanics to be viable, ever. A. Single. Card.
Need I say more? {again}

This must be the 5th or the 6th time I'm crying {some would say whining} about removing this card from the card pool. Noone in their right mind as a real gamer is going to be sad if FFG just bans this card away. Only uber competitive types will be sad. And I can't say that this is a bad thing too.

Is it so difficult for FFG to just admit it and ban this card. They can always fix and reprint it in a future data pack. It is THAT simple really. But no let's just keep it and try to fix the whole game around it.
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Dave Chandler
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Alexfrog wrote:

I know that everyone has read this all before, but it has not stopped being true, and it seems to be getting MORE true over time.


I hear you. I think it's becoming MORE true because most factions don't have to go out of faction as much as they used to anymore. Everybody (but crim) has a good R&D dig). Everybody has a good sentry breaker now (Mimic, Sharpshooter, Deus X). Tutors and recursion are common and cheap enough that you can get away with only one of the out of faction cards you need, and Same Old Thing has doubled down on what Siphon can do. Shaper can get really nasty with it with levvy and card draw. You can get a lot of use out of those 8-12 influence.
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Lluluien
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teknic wrote:
I think a big part of it is that so many Corps fail to punish tags. Just play Closed Accounts for 1 influence and Siphon becomes a lot less scary. If the Runner is forced to spend 2 actions and 4 credits removing tags, then Siphon only nets an average of 2 credits per click - no better than Opus - and even that is assuming it's totally free to get into HQ.


The problem with citing this as an easy solution is that the slot it costs in the Corp deck costs the Corp more "space" than Siphon does in the Runner deck, and it doesn't change the problems that losing your money causes (something neglected in your "no better than Opus" above - that's completely unaccounted for in that math). Beyond that, if your only tag punishment is Closed Accounts, they should be even less inclined to drop their tags after you've hit them with it once, since they don't have the money, get more benefit from the next Siphon for letting the tags ride, and they're more likely to draw into their next Siphon than you are your next Closed Accounts. If the Runner deck was designed to drop the Siphon tags instead of carry them, they very likely would've done that regardless of whether or not you're packing Closed Accounts.

I think you're right that one of the problems is that Corps fail to punish tags, but that's not because the Corps don't want to; it's because there aren't many good mechanisms for punishing more than one tag yet.


And all that is from someone who has run Closed Accounts in a higher % of my Corp games than probably just about anyone around here.
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Greg Nordeng
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People need to "corp up" and stop whining about one card. If you successfully play against siphon and they are playing 3 SOT and 3 siphon, you have effectively now nullified 6 of there card slots.

FFG should not ban or limit this card. That is a designer cop-out, and should only be done in extreme situations.
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Alex Rockwell
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Ethereality wrote:
Hraklea wrote:
The only way to make Siphon less common (without an errata, which I agree it deserves) is to make better high influence Shaper and Anarch cards.


Power-level errata are terrible and I seriously hope Netrunner doesn't get any. A better approach would be to just ban it, maybe reprint a weaker version later.


Banning it and reprinting a weaker version is exactly what a power level errata is.
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Alex Rockwell
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Hraklea wrote:


There are people winning tournaments with trap based decks (like Jinteki and brain-dmg-based-HB). Those decks use remotes.


There are people winning tournaments with bad decks because the quality of competition at many 'store championships' is fairly low, yes. That doesnt make those decks viable at high level play.
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Roberta Yang
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If you want a picture of the future, imagine a runner siphoning a corp's accounts - forever.
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