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Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » Rules

Subject: Discard as cost to receive effect rss

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Eric Little
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TL;DR I think that if a card says Discard this card to receive [x] effect, it MUST be discarded for the effect to work.

This thread is a result of a partial discussion started in the FAQ thread, and I'm curious about people's opinions/thoughts on this interpretation of the card text; especially considering it is being used/abused abundantly as of late.
____________________________________________________________

Weyoun: "Disable Weyoun to prevent 1 of your [crew] Upgrades from being disabled or discarded this round."

Conditional Surrender: "When your ship is attacked, before any dice are rolled, discard all of your (crew) Upgrades to cancel the attack. You must have at least 1 (crew) Upgrade on your ship in order to use this ability."

Weyoun prevents the crew from being discarded, which is the cost of conditional surrender.

It doesn't say "Return a card that was just discarded." Just for the sake of argument lets look at Cheat Death: "If your ship was just destroyed, discard this card to remove Damage Cards one at a time from your Ship Card until the amount of damage is 1 point less than your Hull Value. Flip all remaining Damage Cards face down." This is very clear: The ship WAS destroyed, and then brought back. So the combination with I Stab At Thee: "If your ship was just destroyed, roll 3 attack dice and inflict the resulting damage on all ships within Range 1 of your ship. These ships do not roll defense dice against this damage." is valid because of the combination of wording.

I understand that as of this moment in time, prior rulings allow such things to occur, and maybe I'm getting hung up on it thematically, but I can't help be feel that the intent of these cards was to protect against crew-ganking...not provide yourself [x]-many extra actions for your own card (where x is the number of centurions/shrouds you have).

Just food for thought.
 
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Brook Gentlestream
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Considering Weyoun (prevent a crew from being discarded) came in the same pack as an awesome JemH'dar who has to be discarded to use his ability, I really do think they were meant to combo together.

Thematically, Weyoun as a bodyguard doesn't make too much sense to me, but him directing Jem'Hdar strike teams does. Without him, that cool Jem'Hdar soldier would just charge to his death, which also makes sense to me.

To me, it never occured to me to use Weyoun in a defense posture, because I don't really see him protecting the Jem'Hdar or the Cardassians, thematically. It always seemed to me that he was simply more efficient at utilizing resources (troops) rather then squandering them on suicide runs.
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charles skrobis
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Actually, I can argue this.

The big thing to note about Weyoun 6, is that his expansion in the 5th wing patrol ship comes with 3 crew. So between Vira'kara or toman'torax, he Is meant to mitigate crew from getting disabled or discarded.

The bigger picture is that Weyoun 6 doesn't come with an elite talent slot, so the only way he could get conditional surrender in the first place is with a flagship. So realistically it's more the resource making this happen then it is the cards at base or their rulings.
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Eric Little
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charles_skrobis wrote:
Actually, I can argue this.

The big thing to note about Weyoun 6, is that his expansion in the 5th wing patrol ship comes with 3 crew. So between Vira'kara or toman'torax, he Is meant to mitigate crew from getting disabled or discarded.

The bigger picture is that Weyoun 6 doesn't come with an elite talent slot, so the only way he could get conditional surrender in the first place is with a flagship. So realistically it's more the resource making this happen then it is the cards at base or their rulings.


I actually only meant to use Weyoun as an example since it's so prevalent in the current meta. I just end up over-thinking card text because rules-lawyers are making the competitive scene somewhat un-fun with spamming things like this (which thematically and mechanically were't intended to be used the way they are; in my opinion anyway). There are plenty of ways to "abuse" this mechanic.

Someone posted a Romulan tank build that used Centurions and Varel to make the ship as irritating as possible for [x] centurions number of rounds.

You could also do some pretty mean stuff with Leonard Mc'Coy allowing you to use other crew actions as free actions; maybe even boosting your attack/defense by an absurd amount by using Scotty/Sulu. Obviously very one-trick pony-ish, but certainly within the realm of possibility. And as more cards come out, they have to take that possibility into consideration.

Not like any of it is unbeatable; but to reiterate yet again: I just can't imagine that the original intent was to allow such things to happen the way that currently are. I could be wrong, but I don't understand how discarding a centurion in place of Mc'Coy to use Sulu over and over again makes any sense thematically (other than Mc'Coy being a vampire using Centurions as food to maintain his energy).
 
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Brook Gentlestream
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Given the fact that Sulu already can be used each turn, this doesn't seem like a very great application for these slots and points. All this does is let you use Sulu and something else, like Scotty. They can already be used each turn, you just can't normally use them together.

So assuming you would be using Scotty anyway, your net benefit is only +2 defense for three turns. Pretty handy I suppose, but is it worth three crew slots and 11 points?


edit; I know this wasn't really your point, and I agree with your general frustrations with the thematic elements of the game (or lack thereof). There are numerous effects, characters, and decisions that I don't like and I've even started creating my own custom version of the game for some friends of mine because things like cloaking and torpedoes and shields really bug me.
 
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Rob Tsuk
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I won't touch the thematic argument, as I think everyone is entitled to interpret the theme as they like.

For the intent of the card, I think it's clear Weyoun was supposed to be used the way folks are using him, to avoid having to actually pay the discard cost of cards that usually require a discard. If he were just a bodyguard, no one would ever use him. One doesn't see enough crew killers in play to make it worth dedicating a captains ability to it.

Also, Andrew Parks made some comments about how good Weyoun was going to be in combination with certain other cards. He was almost cackling. I don't think these Weyoun shenanigans are a surprise to the designers.
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Eric Little
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lordrahvin wrote:
Given the fact that Sulu already can be used each turn, this doesn't seem like a very great application for these slots and points. All this does is let you use Sulu and something else, like Scotty. They can already be used each turn, you just can't normally use them together.

So assuming you would be using Scotty anyway, your net benefit is only +2 defense for three turns. Pretty handy I suppose, but is it worth three crew slots and 11 points?


What I was trying to get at is that with this you could theoretically use the same card's action multiple times in the same round. You're right that it's completely a waste of points, but technically you COULD use Sulu to get +12 defense dice in a single round. Sulu as Action, McCoy + Cent to Sulu again x3, Weyoun + McCoy to Sulu again, then lastly McCoy for real. Technically this is only possible on a flagship tinyprise (5 crew slots), but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous, regardless of how terrible of a build that would be.

And in regards to the point that several people have brought up about Weyoun + the crew upgrades that came in the same pack: all of those cards are unique. It's the non-uniques like Centurion that make this particularly absurd.
 
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charles skrobis
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Well to be honest, I kind of posted that thing about the centurions back on that other thread, and if you go back far enough, I think I'm actually the first to post the weyoun conditional thing on the forums here, so a lot of this just looks like people using things I've said, or thinking in a similar way at least.

The bigger picture is that it's a wonderful balancing act to mess with people in the straight ship vs ship area. If everything is based around jousting so to speak, first everything revolves around high attack wrecking your opponent's fleet in a round or 2. So this is kind of the next step in the joust format where ships found a way to tank the shots without taking any damage, and thus hard counter the previous meta for attack. Not sure what we'll see next in this format, but I'm leaning towards crew gank cards and action based damage, cause muons are crazy, cloaked mines hurt, and all these build revolving around stacking crew and such lose something if they have to save the crew early, or lose some other aspect of their build to discard effects, especially because of how crazy some of the effects people are stacking on their ships.

Past this I'd rather just take the maneuvering option to the game, because things like reverses throw off a lot of opponents, and white hard turns or 4 banks can really define how ships like to move.
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charles skrobis
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ejlittle wrote:
lordrahvin wrote:
Given the fact that Sulu already can be used each turn, this doesn't seem like a very great application for these slots and points. All this does is let you use Sulu and something else, like Scotty. They can already be used each turn, you just can't normally use them together.

So assuming you would be using Scotty anyway, your net benefit is only +2 defense for three turns. Pretty handy I suppose, but is it worth three crew slots and 11 points?


What I was trying to get at is that with this you could theoretically use the same card's action multiple times in the same round. You're right that it's completely a waste of points, but technically you COULD use Sulu to get +12 defense dice in a single round. Sulu as Action, McCoy + Cent to Sulu again x3, Weyoun + McCoy to Sulu again, then lastly McCoy for real. Technically this is only possible on a flagship tinyprise (5 crew slots), but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous, regardless of how terrible of a build that would be.

And in regards to the point that several people have brought up about Weyoun + the crew upgrades that came in the same pack: all of those cards are unique. It's the non-uniques like Centurion that make this particularly absurd.


Also, you can't take the same action twice in 1 round, so you can only have 1 sulu buff, remove 1 disable token, or that sort of thing. The real trick is that varel or conditional just aren't worded as actions or free actions, so that they can be used outside the action phase for when people are shooting at them.
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Eric Little
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charles_skrobis wrote:
ejlittle wrote:
lordrahvin wrote:
Given the fact that Sulu already can be used each turn, this doesn't seem like a very great application for these slots and points. All this does is let you use Sulu and something else, like Scotty. They can already be used each turn, you just can't normally use them together.

So assuming you would be using Scotty anyway, your net benefit is only +2 defense for three turns. Pretty handy I suppose, but is it worth three crew slots and 11 points?


What I was trying to get at is that with this you could theoretically use the same card's action multiple times in the same round. You're right that it's completely a waste of points, but technically you COULD use Sulu to get +12 defense dice in a single round. Sulu as Action, McCoy + Cent to Sulu again x3, Weyoun + McCoy to Sulu again, then lastly McCoy for real. Technically this is only possible on a flagship tinyprise (5 crew slots), but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous, regardless of how terrible of a build that would be.

And in regards to the point that several people have brought up about Weyoun + the crew upgrades that came in the same pack: all of those cards are unique. It's the non-uniques like Centurion that make this particularly absurd.


Also, you can't take the same action twice in 1 round, so you can only have 1 sulu buff, remove 1 disable token, or that sort of thing. The real trick is that varel or conditional just aren't worded as actions or free actions, so that they can be used outside the action phase for when people are shooting at them.


Bah...I knew that. For some reason I had convinced myself that the card actions weren't the same as the basic ship actions (evasive maneuvers, cloak, battle stations, etc.)

I do still think the wording has room for improvement. It could have easily said: "If a [type] card was just discarded...[effect]"

And any cards that I'm labeling as "intending" to protect crew from being discarded by an opponent could say something about just that: "Prevent a [type] card from being discarded by an opponent."
 
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charles skrobis
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Well, we actually have 2 people who stop your opponent's discard effects, which ironically can in the same wave as weyoun 6.

So with both Kira and Stex, if your opponent discards a crew that would discard or disable one of your upgrades, roll 2 defense dice, and on 1 evade result, you cancle the effect.

No one thinks about them, because no one uses them, because no one uses anti-upgrade effects.

So now we're hitting that stage where upgrade combos are really starting to ramp up because of the options, the real trick is if people are willing to use something that takes away a part of that combo, and change how the current meta works.
 
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Ted Kay
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charles_skrobis wrote:
Well, we actually have 2 people who stop your opponent's discard effects, which ironically can in the same wave as weyoun 6.

So with both Kira and Stex, if your opponent discards a crew that would discard or disable one of your upgrades, roll 2 defense dice, and on 1 evade result, you cancle the effect.

No one thinks about them, because no one uses them, because no one uses anti-upgrade effects.

So now we're hitting that stage where upgrade combos are really starting to ramp up because of the options, the real trick is if people are willing to use something that takes away a part of that combo, and change how the current meta works.


This, very much this has been my experience. I've only seen Stex fielded in the Kobayashi Maru, ironically by the Federation player who was trying not to get Klingon Boarding Party applied to all of his upgrades. Kira is completely disregarded at my local venues- I have yet to see her at all.

I do think that Stex and Kira are designed specifically as protection against "ganking." This is why Weyoun costs 4 as a six skill captain without a talent slot- he's got a very good passive ability. Broken as is? Hardly. Just overrated right now.

A joint Romulan-Klingon list can set up to be surprisingly effective at discarding upgrades off an opponent's upgrade-heavy Dreadnought. Consider the following:

IKS G'Roth - 18
Projected Stasis Field - 5
Korax - 3

Nova Class - 18
Miles O'Brien - 2

RIS Apnex - 14
Bochra - 1
Parem - 1

IKS Negh'Var - 30
Martok - 5
Sabotage - 3
---

On the approach, the Nova starts by using O'Brien to disable whatever is the most important target- Conditional Surrender, Cheat Death, you name it. The G'Roth projects a stasis field, neutralizing the opposing ship for the round and disabling its shields. Apnex applies Bochra or Parem directly to the offending crew upgrades. When Martok activates, he has options- directing any of the three ships with either Korax or the remaining Romulan crew as needed, or giving other actions. He can then use Sabotage if needed to target a Tech or Weapon upgrade for discard.

This is simply a play style that hasn't been adopted in favor of what is perceived as a more consistent, reliable style of play. Whether that's true or not has yet to really be tested.

I think "ganking" cards may be the answer to high skill ships, giving it more thought now.
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