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Subject: Deck - The Red Coats rss

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Greg Nordeng
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Identity:
Haas-Bioroid: Engineering the Future (Core)

Total Cards: (49)
Agenda (8)
Accelerated Beta Test (Core #55) x3
Priority Requisition (Core #106) x3
Project Vitruvius (Cyber Exodus #51) x1
Project Wotan (Creation and Control #6) x1

Asset (9)
Adonis Campaign (Core #56) x3
Eve Campaign (Humanity's Shadow #92) x3
Jackson Howard (Opening Moves #15) x3 ■

ICE (21)
Caduceus (What Lies Ahead #19) x3 ■■
Eli 1.0 (Future Proof #110) x3
Heimdall 2.0 (Creation and Control #15) x2
Ichi 2.0 (Creation and Control #17) x2
NEXT Bronze (Opening Moves #11) x3
Tollbooth (Core #90) x3 ■■
Viktor 2.0 (Creation and Control #19) x2
Wotan (Second Thoughts #30) x1
Heimdall 1.0 (Core #61) x2

Operation (6)
Hedge Fund (Core #110) x3
Restructure (Second Thoughts #40) x3
Subliminal Messaging x2

Upgrade (3)
Ash 2X3ZB9CY (What Lies Ahead #13) x3

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So this deck has stimulated a reasonable amount of conversation, and it has been suggested to me to start a thread for discussion.

I consider this deck to be my personal masterpiece because it works at a high level and it's not a FA deck, a rush deck, or any kind of flatline deck. It's a bonafide long game deck that sufficiently protects you from the Criminal faction, and specifically does very well against Account Siphon.

If you watch my games on my youtube channel you can get a much better feel for how I play it, but I will outline the general strategy.

General Strategy - TAX TAX TAX! Make the runner keep paying for everything. Clicks, money, doesn't matter, just tax. I want the runner spending money constantly. In most corp decks, you cannot afford to pace the runner 1/1 on credits. I'd say (estimating approximately) if I can get 2 credits for every 3 the runner gets, I am in a good position.

Think siphon. It's coming. 9/10 times I am devoting my first ICE to HQ. With so many people playing AS out of faction, I pretty much defend it immediately no matter what (unless it's Professor.) There are exceptions, but this is my general rule. Also look for subtle cues from the runner that may indicate they are about to siphon. Just be extremely aware of it and actively defend it. You will have the ICE and econ to do it.

Caduceus is the ultimate early game ICE for this deck. 3 strength for 3 rez cost, and 2 subs. Even with Andy/Kate/Reina's link, it will cost them 3 to break all of the traces, and they are not likely to want to run it again until they can break it. Without link, I often get a free rez if they don't beat the trace, and will sit there as a VERY cheap deterrent until they get a Mimic. Even with Mimic, costing them 2 credits the entire game WILL add up. Ideally Caduceus is going on HQ or R&D.

Get all centrals expensive to run. I want to get the centrals (R&D and HQ specifically) Iced 2-3 deep ASAP. The beauty of bioroid ICE is how strong they are in conjunction with one another. Stacking an Eli on a Viktor 2 is a really strong play for 8 rez cost. If I don't stack the bioroids, I'll get a tollbooth up instead, which is just as good or better.

Survive the early game. Rez a lot of ICE, even if you get hurt a little bit economically. Again, it's more important to tax the runner than you saving a few credits here and there. You are generally playing for the long game, and eventually, you are extremely likely to dominate the econ war.

Don't panic. There are games where you get agenda flooded, you can't find enough cheap ICE to rez, or the runner has amazing sniping skills. This is rare, but it's variance and it will happen. Stick with the plan, even if you get down by 4-6 points. Keep taxing the runner. Trust your R&D, you only have 8 agendas in the deck. If they get 2 of them early, you are just that much "safer" in R&D, and you will generally have time to recover and protect yourself properly.

Ash. Co-MVP (with tollbooth). Ash makes the deck. Considering how rich you will be, late game it's virtually a guaranteed score when you have a 3-4 stacked mega remote and an ASH installed. Early-mid game, an ash in front of a singleton Vik2 or even Eli can be enough to rush an agenda if you need to or the window is open.

Run ABT's as often as possible. Play to get Jackson on the table before an ABT score ideally. But if you have seen a fair number of agendas or little ICE, just run it. A successful ABT is one of the most crippling plays this deck has.

It is NOT a HBFA deck... But mot runners will assume it is and play accordingly, which is exactly what this deck wants. It wants runners to be hyper aggressive. Make them go on fruitless expensive runs searching for 1 of 8 agendas. Usually the more a runner runs, the more you will crush them. This is very counter-intuitive to playing against rush or FA decks, so enjoy this intangible benefit of HBFA being such a strong and prevalent deck type.

The "Ya, buts"...

"This deck takes too long to play in a tournament" - I have not gone to time playing this deck in any tournaments. Practice with the deck frequently so you are comfortable with it and can plan your plays 2-3 turns ahead. In other words, mitigate any delays of thinking by making the deck "second nature" to play. Compliment with a fast runner deck if you are concerned. I paired this with a Gabe "rush your face off deck" to balance the game times a little bit.

"It's not one of the 2-3 deck types everybody else is winning with, so it can't be good" - Congratulations, you are now outside the hive...err.. box.

"Siphon will crush you, and no deck can adequately defend AS right now" - Many threads on this. You can never completely nullify Account Siphon. Some games if your draw is bad, and they get a Same Old Thing/AS train going, you will likely lose, but that's Netrunner right now. That being said, I seldom get siphoned, and if I do, it's not usually crippling. The following is where this deck works against siphon, and is considerably better defense against it than most decks IMO.

For one, if I do get "siphon trained" it's going to be early. With 8 Agendas in the deck, even if I am totally broke and they have free reign on my servers, it is unlikely they are going to find enough agendas to win until I have enough time to recover.

Second, this house is built with Bricks, not sticks. In other words, I am rich. Losing 5 credits is seldom devastating, or even game changing. I am only spending money on rezzing ICE/assets and pumping ASH. Not having to spend money on SanSan/Biotics is a big deal. The money goes to ICE that typically stays rezzed, so I am going to get a lot of long term value for paying 8 on a tollbooth, or 11 on a Heimdall 2.0. I will soon recover that cost and then some, but the runner will pay for the ICE all game. The 10 they gained from Siphon will fizzle eventually or immediately by running 1-2 times on any of my central servers.

Third, reference paragraph 5. Think Siphon. I will "over-protect" my HQ if I think they are playing siphon. I am always looking for future pockets in the game where they might want to siphon me and try to be in positions to defend it by thinking 2-3 steps ahead.

That's about it. I know there are a few other strong players out there playing this deck. I am guessing their experience is similar. Thoughts? Critiques? Questions?

Let's discuss!



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Dirk Tebben
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Love it. This is, in fact, exactly the type of deck that is a huge PITA for Criminals. How does it do against Shaper big-rig, big-econ? Seems like that would be the worst matchup.

I've been seeing more and more of these "back to basics" corp decks -- no trickery, no weird combos, just a lot of ice and a lot of econ. I think JH makes them a lot more viable than they used to be.
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James Henry
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Taxing is huge. The strategy was pretty centric to my HB slow advance deck. I used Rework to put agendas back into R&D unless I could score them out of hand and R&D was iced up super heavy and expensive.

Adonis, Eve, PAD - those cards are perfect because the runner wants to trash immediately and then they've used a run + money to do that. If they make the mistake of leaving them however you're got piles of money to rez a ton of ice.

Ash is amazing as well - I ran a similar deck using Ash with Red Herrings for extra protection, I loved that.

Either way I really like the idea. I have to say I really came to love Viktor 2.0 as a card. The double click to break is taxing on time and he's not necessarily super cheap to break unless they're running yog + datasuckers.

Have you considered running a 1x or 2x trap? Secretaries? I know it's wasted credits if they don't buy it, but if you pressure strategically and force a run on an expensive remote AND crush them with a secretary (or even edge of world) it could be pretty devastating. Not easy to pull off though.
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Geoff Hollis
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Nords3x4 wrote:
General Strategy - TAX TAX TAX! Make the runner keep paying for everything. Clicks, money, doesn't matter, just tax. I want the runner spending money constantly. In most corp decks, you cannot afford to pace the runner 1/1 on credits. I'd say (estimating approximately) if I can get 2 credits for every 3 the runner gets, I am in a good position.


It seems to me that your agenda composition and your goal are counter-productive. By running lots of 3-point agendas, you increase your early-game variance; I've found that there is a substantial portion of times where your taxation doesn't matter, because all the runner has to do is plan for one or two well-timed runs. You want to force the runner to run lots of times rather than allowing them to make precision strikes.

I've had way more success with taxation decks and cards like Ash when I run more, low-cost agendas. Specifically, the agenda composition I've found to work best is:

x2 1-pt
x6 2-pt
x2 3-pt

Have you considered:
-1 Project Wotan
-1 Priority Requisition
-2 Subliminal Messaging / -1 next bronze,-1 eve campaign
+2 Project Vitruvius
+2 Gila Hands Arcology

Have you tried something like this before?

Shadow seems like a really strong card in this deck. Like, probably better than caduceus. Have you toyed around with shadow at all?

My feeling is:
-1 tollbooth
-1 caduceus
-2 next bronze
+3 shadow
+1 closed accounts

With decks like this, my feeling is it's always better to let the runner in on turn 1 at the cost of a trace3 than to stop them from getting a random access.

Thoughts?

If you were to build a deck to beat this deck, what would it be?
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Greg Nordeng
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stillnotking wrote:
Love it. This is, in fact, exactly the type of deck that is a huge PITA for Criminals. How does it do against Shaper big-rig, big-econ? Seems like that would be the worst matchup.

I've been seeing more and more of these "back to basics" corp decks -- no trickery, no weird combos, just a lot of ice and a lot of econ. I think JH makes them a lot more viable than they used to be.


Yes, no doubt the big rig big Opus decks are the toughest. Probably Andy rig rig decks specifically are the toughest. Players must be smart enough to recognize they need to put on the brakes and just take 8 on Opus. If a runner gets a full rig, an opus, and goes in "take 8" mode... I am probably in trouble. In these cases I will switch my gears into rushing agendas as fast as possible mode. Again, thankfully most people don't play the big rig deck, and even if they do, they will run enough to keep me ahead of the curve, so even with opus, a lot of times they don't have enough money to win.
 
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James Henry
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Also maybe -2 subliminal messaging and +2 archived?

Get back trashed jackson, Ash, or even your monetary assets. you're swimming in credits anyway. The 2x archived can keep up the pressure.
 
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Martin Presley
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How do you do against big rig decks? This does look like a pain as an aggressive Gabe, but MO or Kati will inevitably outpace your economy. The normal defense is to score quickly, but as that is self declaredly not your approach, what is?

EDIT: answered while typing, never mind.
 
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Brain Less
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There is 23 ice on your deck list for 51 cards
 
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Geoff Hollis
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Nords3x4 wrote:
no doubt the big rig big Opus decks are the toughest.


Another reason I would consider an agenda composition of 11 - 222222 - 33 rather than 2222 - 3333. A wider spread in agenda points deals with infinite econ a little better; you force more runs.
 
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Greg Nordeng
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hollis wrote:
Nords3x4 wrote:
General Strategy - TAX TAX TAX! Make the runner keep paying for everything. Clicks, money, doesn't matter, just tax. I want the runner spending money constantly. In most corp decks, you cannot afford to pace the runner 1/1 on credits. I'd say (estimating approximately) if I can get 2 credits for every 3 the runner gets, I am in a good position.


It seems to me that your agenda composition and your goal are counter-productive. By running lots of 3-point agendas, you increase your early-game variance; I've found that there is a substantial portion of times where your taxation doesn't matter, because all the runner has to do is plan for one or two well-timed runs. You want to force the runner to run lots of times rather than allowing them to make precision strikes.

I've had way more success with taxation decks and cards like Ash when I run more, low-cost agendas. Specifically, the agenda composition I've found to work best is:

x2 1-pt
x6 2-pt
x2 3-pt

Have you considered:
-1 Project Wotan
-1 Priority Requisition
-2 Subliminal Messaging / -1 next bronze,-1 eve campaign
+2 Project Vitruvius
+2 Gila Hands Arcology

Have you tried something like this before?

Shadow seems like a really strong card in this deck. Like, probably better than caduceus. Have you toyed around with shadow at all?

My feeling is:
-1 tollbooth
-1 caduceus
-2 next bronze
+3 shadow
+1 closed accounts

With decks like this, my feeling is it's always better to let the runner in on turn 1 at the cost of a trace3 than to stop them from getting a random access.


Thoughts?

If you were to build a deck to beat this deck, what would it be?



Good thoughts! I have not tried your suggestions, so I don't know how they would work, but I see your points.

Agendas - I think for my play style at least, I like leaning on my R&D for a place the runner wastes a lot of time and money and find no agendas. Best solutions for that is low agenda density.

Closed accounts is a viable idea, and shadow has merit. The thing is, I CAN lean on Caduceus to end the run if I need to. It's not it's strength as an ICE, but if I am rich, and they have no killer, I will be able to ETR. Shadow is maybe a little better for taxing, but no ETR is an issue for me.

Best decks against it, as noted above. Big Rig Crims. Aaron Andries Worlds top 4 deck is probably it's stiffest competition. I say crim because of cards like shutdown/Femme/Inside Job.
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Greg Nordeng
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Vuud wrote:
There is 23 ice on your deck list for 51 cards


Your right, those Vipers should be out. I was making adjustments post-Copy/Paste. Fixed.
 
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Geoff Hollis
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Nords3x4 wrote:
Vuud wrote:
There is 23 ice on your deck list for 51 cards


Your right, those Vipers should be out. I was making adjustments post-Copy/Paste. Fixed.


Really?! I rather liked the vipers in this deck. I'd be more inclined to drop heimdall 1 or 2 rather than viper. What is your reasoning?
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Lysander
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I suspect it's a gap in my runner skills rather than decks used, but HB glacier builds such as this are a nightmare for me, regardless of which deck I'm piloting. Any advice for beating it? I'm even seriously entertaining the notion of splashing a Quest Complete (my primary deck is a very quick, efficient Kate deck which can be found at the top of Stimhack's forums).

I agree with Hollis's suggestions, but yeah very powerful deck. Are you considering Caprice Nisei or Will O' the Wisp?

And again, I'd love any advice you can give to light-rig Shapers for taking on Ash in a well-defended remote.
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I'll post my most recent decklist when I get home, as I was one of the ones asking for this kind of thread! Thanks for posting.

There are two big differences between our decks that I'd like to discuss. The first one isn't too controversial, but it's the asset economy. My economy is Adonis, Hedge, Restructure, and Successful Demonstration. I did this to keep R&D less porous and to let me burst back to life quickly. I found that Eve took too long to pay off and that I was often making the tough choice of leaving her to tick along or blowing her up to install the agenda and advance. I personally found that I had to defend her/Adonis to keep them around and couldn't keep up w/ the runner if I had multiple defended remotes. How many remotes are you typically building and how big are they?

The other difference is where I go way outside the hive...I switched over to Stronger Together and found the deck played better. Like you said, I found myself very rich and never needing the ETF credit. I originally started with Bioroid Efficiency Research and even bailed on that when I found I could rez Janus the hard way and STILL have enough money. ST really plays into the TAX mentality of this deck and it's amazing how great it is against the Datasucker/Fixed breaker decks because everything costs 1 extra counter. Stacked Bioroids really start to add up and if they click through stuff then Ash gets better as they can't rerun.

I really like all the ABTs, and think I prefer your agenda composition to mine. I'm running 3x Requisition, 3x Wotan, and an ABT but I think I'll switch to yours. This deck originally started as a trap heavy HB that worked OK, but I've left that "fun" behind in favor of consistency but never really looked at my agendas again.
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Greg Nordeng
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hollis wrote:
Nords3x4 wrote:
Vuud wrote:
There is 23 ice on your deck list for 51 cards


Your right, those Vipers should be out. I was making adjustments post-Copy/Paste. Fixed.


Really?! I rather liked the vipers in this deck. I'd be more inclined to drop heimdall 1 or 2 rather than viper. What is your reasoning?


Ya, I think the obvious play is to keep more small ICE. I think it would be fine either way. I made this change a few weeks ago to try and get SubMess in there. I originally had Ichi1.0 instead of Ichi2, no SubMess and 2 Vipers. This might in fact be a stronger variant than the one posted.

To answer your question though. Rezzing big ICE is not usually an issue. Cheating Heimdall 2 and Wotan in with a P Req is a common play for me, that probably should have been noted in my OP (another reason I like my agendas is the 3 P. Reqs). Even if I do pay for it, they will end up paying for it a lot more than I will most likely. The small ICE can get me through the early game, but the big boys, and I mean BIG boys are what win me the game.
 
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simon bradford
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Why is it called 'the red coats'?
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Greg Nordeng
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hoobajoo wrote:
How do you do against big rig decks? This does look like a pain as an aggressive Gabe, but MO or Kati will inevitably outpace your economy. The normal defense is to score quickly, but as that is self declaredly not your approach, what is?

EDIT: answered while typing, never mind.


I can outpace Kati usually as long as it's not paired with Prof Contacts. Those 2 together can be a challenge. I can out pace Opus as long as they are not playing the "Take 8" game. If they are at least semi-aggressive, I will usually be able to handle the opus.
 
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Ryan Angell
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my biggest problem with this type of deck is real time. in a timed tournament round you may be able to play your deck fast but you are seldom winning in a timely fashion, your runner opponent will rarely win fast and each of the servers is a math problem the average player has to take awhile to work out.

running into this type deck is why i dont let my opponent choose to run or corp first but roll for it. i used to let people choose but ive had HB players choose corp first playing this type of deck because they knew it would take a majority of the round time and if they corped 2nd with no biotics to grab agenda points quickly they would be at a disadvantage if they needed agendas to win the match before time.

stronger together does work but you need even more econ. i counted the ETF credits i was missing in my last stronger together game and it was 15+. ouch.



 
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Greg Nordeng
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choux wrote:
Why is it called 'the red coats'?


Red Coats were the name of the British soldiers in the Revolutionary War. They were defending the government responsible for taxation without representation. So the "Red Coats" would be my ICE defending the "tyrannical taxing government". which is me, the megacorp.
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Geoff Hollis
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Another consideration: Melange vs. Eve campaign. Thoughts?
 
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James Henry
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hollis wrote:
Another consideration: Melange vs. Eve campaign. Thoughts?


Melange: more $ quickly, but very low trash cost, needs protection.

EVE: very slow drip + expensive to rez, but also expensive to trash, basically needs 0 protection, don't need to click for money.

I think EVE serves better in this deck because if the runner trashes it severely hinders their pacing which is exactly what you want. Drain their money.

The big boosts from Melange is nice, especially when you're playing the waiting game but I like eve better.
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Dave Kudzma
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You'd better be careful; you'll prove that you don't have to FA or Flatline to win.
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So tough to play MMC in EtF. I prefer Eve. Is rarely killed.

BTW, terrible deck, Greg. I hated playing my version at two Plugged Ins. People absolutely LOVE running 4+ ICE towers on R&D and a remote. XD
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Greg Nordeng
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jhmanufacture wrote:
hollis wrote:
Another consideration: Melange vs. Eve campaign. Thoughts?


Melange: more $ quickly, but very low trash cost, needs protection.

EVE: very slow drip + expensive to rez, but also expensive to trash, basically needs 0 protection, don't need to click for money.

I think EVE serves better in this deck because if the runner trashes it severely hinders their pacing which is exactly what you want. Drain their money.

The big boosts from Melange is nice, especially when you're playing the waiting game but I like eve better.


Pretty much this.

If I was needing more money I would play MMC. But I am usually plenty rich, and as stated above it's really the tax on the runner that is important.

Eve is probably my favorite card in the deck.
+1 for install
-5 for rez
+2 for trickle
= -2

Runner pays 5 to trash so...
-2 + 5 = +3 net gain

If they don't trash it, it's +11 or +12 depending on install credit.

As mentioned I can win the money game 1 for 1 usually, so this is a bargain for me.
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Geoff Hollis
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jhmanufacture wrote:
hollis wrote:
Another consideration: Melange vs. Eve campaign. Thoughts?


Melange: more $ quickly, but very low trash cost, needs protection.

EVE: very slow drip + expensive to rez, but also expensive to trash, basically needs 0 protection, don't need to click for money.

I think EVE serves better in this deck because if the runner trashes it severely hinders their pacing which is exactly what you want. Drain their money.

The big boosts from Melange is nice, especially when you're playing the waiting game but I like eve better.


OP has identified his major threat as Opus, or Kati+Prof Contacts. Opus in particular crushes undefended Eve campaigns. Eve campaign is really only strong at outpacing the runner in situations where the runner cannot click for unlimited credits.

On the other hand, Melange in a remote server is very hard to deal with for Opus/Kati+ProfContacts decks. In addition, melange also deals with the runner doing "take 8 credits off Opus", which the OP identified as a problem. Eve campaign does not.

Eve campaign is (maybe?) better defense against criminals or account siphon.
Eve campaign is substantially worse than Melange against Opus or Kati/Prof Contacts.
Melange is a higher-variance econ card if the runner is making central server runs.

I don't think it is clear that Eve Campaign is a good choice in econ, given that the OP has identified Magnum Opus as being a problem for the deck. Melange is probably much better in such cases.
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