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Subject: Any WW2 Euro Theatre Operational wargame suggestions? rss

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Sean Dunn
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I have played several tactical wargames (C&C Ancients, Combat Commander Europe), and was looking to try an Operation level European wargame. But there are so many, how to choose? I don't want to go backrupt purchasing titles till I find one I shall really enjoy.

Can veteran kriegspielers advice me on what to get, what they consider to be the best of the bunch? I want something reasonably sophisticated.Avoid listing expensive, out of print games. For suggestions, could you list playtimes (and whether there are shorter and longer scenarios) and game complexity.

Thanks for any assistance you can provide.

EDIT: Does anyone have any familiarity with Roads to Moscow, No Retreat! The Russian Front, The Dark Valley: East Front 1941-45, Barbarossa Crimea, Barbarossa Kiev To Rostock, Totaler Krieger (more a strategic game), and Guderian's Blitzkrieg (old or new edition)? The Barbarossa games and Guderian (the new version has 2200 counters!) seem to be very veteran.
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Chad
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In my opinion



Is about as good as they come - granted this only focuses on the Western Theater. (Hexasim is supposedly working on an Eastern Front version as well).

Also, you may consider waiting for The Mighty Endeavor (2nd edition) - that is supposed to include both Fronts.

edit - saw your other questions

1) Play time

Cobra scenario: 1.5 to 2 hrs.
D-Day scenario: 6 to 8 hrs.
Campaign scenario: 15 to 20 hrs.

2) Cost you can pick it up for about $60 and it is currently in print
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Tripp Ritter
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Anything by Mark Simonitch. I think the only one in print is France 40, but it is great. Later this year Ukraine 43 and Normandy 44 are coming out. Ardennes 44 is about to be reprinted, but it is longer.
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Enrico Viglino
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Napoleon at Bay: The Campaign in France, 1814 is a good starting point.
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Brian Korreck
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EastFront II
WestFront II
EuroFront II

Slap these boys together and you got yourself a ballgame.
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Hunga Dunga
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Advanced European Theater of Operations

A new, easier version is supposed to be published "soon"...



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Russ Williams
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calandale wrote:


I'm guessing you didn't notice the "WW2" in the subject...
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Brian Korreck
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russ wrote:
calandale wrote:


I'm guessing you didn't notice the "WW2" in the subject...


Everyone knows WW2 had its origins in the Napoleonic Wars.
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Eddie Meister
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Case Blue
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Steve Arthur
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Utrecht wrote:
In my opinion



Is about as good as they come - granted this only focuses on the Western Theater. (Hexasim is supposedly working on an Eastern Front version as well).

Also, you may consider waiting for The Mighty Endeavor (2nd edition) - that is supposed to include both Fronts.

edit - saw your other questions

1) Play time

Cobra scenario: 1.5 to 2 hrs.
D-Day scenario: 6 to 8 hrs.
Campaign scenario: 15 to 20 hrs.

2) Cost you can pick it up for about $60 and it is currently in print



My first choice too..

Although one or two people whose opinions I respect have high praise for this...The Supreme Commander
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Enrico Viglino
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russ wrote:
calandale wrote:


I'm guessing you didn't notice the "WW2" in the subject...


I'd SWEAR that wasn't there.
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Steve Vondra
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Tripp wrote:
Anything by Mark Simonitch. I think the only one in print is France 40, but it is great. Later this year Ukraine 43 and Normandy 44 are coming out. Ardennes 44 is about to be reprinted, but it is longer.

This!

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Sean Dunn
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Thanks for the suggestions so far. Case Blue is well esteemed but pricey. Advanced European Theater of Operations has a great map but $250 disqualified it. The Mark Simonitch games sound interesting and some of them seem to be available at reasonable prices, Ardennes and Caucasus campaigns. Liberty Roads and The Mighty Endeavour I had not heard of so far in my scatterbrained research.

,
 
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Sean McCormick
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I tend to think that the best WW2 operational games on the market are FAB: The Bulge and FAB: Sicily by a fairly wide margin. Smart, quick playing designs that give you good history and a strong focus on the proper command decisions.
 
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Michael Carter
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France '40 works pretty well for an intro operational game. Comes with a pretty standard rule set and two scenarios.
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Enrico Viglino
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Wiccan of Oz wrote:
Thanks for the suggestions so far. Case Blue is well esteemed but pricey. Advanced European Theater of Operations has a great map but $250 disqualified it.,


They're also a bit much given what you've played.
I sure wouldn't have wanted to dive into either of these
without a good deal of experience in the designs that
preceded them.
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Tripp Ritter
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The Caucasus campaign is quite fun and benefits from a very low unit count. I found my copy relatively cheaply on Ebay. I will add my voice to those supporting Liberty Roads. It is a fun game, but at a much higher scale than the Simonitch designs.
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Jonathan Townsend
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Morsecode ···–

This is great and often overlooked. Not to complicated but with enough colour to make it interesting.
It can be bought cheaply from Europe (UGG store) for only about Euroes 12 first-hand! What is the cost of shipping like to your domain?
 
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Subatomic Birdicle
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Some strange suggestions in here for an operational level game. Why are people recommending strategic and grand strategic level games?

I think Simonitch games are going to give you what you are looking for at a reasonable price.

How much room do you have? Is this for solitaire or FTF play?

The Operationsl Combat Series is not what I'd call a beginner's system but if you want to try it, Reluctant Enemies is about to ship. It is very small and comes with an Intro to OCS booklet, it is meant to help get new players into OCS.
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Rex Stites
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Ardennes '44
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Ronald Paulson

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For operation games, A Victory Lost and A Victory Denied (both from MMP games) are good entry level wargames and quite well though of. A Victory Lost even won the Charles S. Roberts Best WWII Boardgame for 2006. You can check out their rules on the MMP website in order to see if they are what you are looking for.

On a more strategic level there is Barbarossa: The Russo-German War 1941-1945 from Decision Games World at War Magazine #1. Again, Decision Games has living rules posted on their web site so you can get an idea if it your cup of tea.
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Zigi Hogan
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What's it going to be then, eh?
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vidbot wrote:


DAMMIT!

That was my answer!
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Zigi Hogan
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I am a HUGE fan of No Retreat! The Russian Front! This is a great game that really rewards players with an excellent gameplay and replayability.

In my book Carl Paradis is just one level below the baby Jesus (for those who aren't in the know; the baby Jesus of game design is Frank Chadwick).

I do not understand the reason wargamers suggest NR as a "intro" wargame. It has a relatively short (not light) ruleset but the exceptions have exceptions that have exceptions to their exceptions. Once you get through all of it (maybe two games worth) it really shines and is the one wargame I return to again and again with no hesitation.

My regular wargaming partner and I played our very first game of NR in approximately 3 hours (first scenario) and subsequent games are considerably shorter with less looking up of rules questions. As always with wargames they can go much longer or much shorter but I would think less than three hours is a good estimate for NR.

Unless I want a game that is more in depth historically I don't see a reason to get another Eastern Front wargame (not that there are few choices as you can't swing a stick without hitting one!). Battle for Moscow (second edition) is a great game to drag Euro gamers to the dark side though.devil

Truly great game, I have no clue if this even comes close to the answer you were looking for but....check it out!
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Jeremy Fridy
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For a big ETO game that will take a lot of sessions? I would go with Totaler Krieg, it's not too hard to pick up, and you have a lot of options of how you want to fight your war. I admit I learned it wrong at first, but even then it was still a fun game.

For a FANTASTIC East Front game, No Retreat! is almost perfect. If you want a more classic wargaming experience, look for The Russian Campaign.

The Russian Campaign has a 6 page rulebook, and is very straightforward. The game is a classic even after decades.

No Retreat! The Russian Front is very low on counters, but plays in a logical way and feels "right," in that you never seem to be doing something just to game the system. It also has a solitaire Module available.

Also of note. You should be able to find a very cheap copy of the old Avalon Hill's Rise and Decline of the Third Reich. It was one of their most published games, and a classic for being really the first grand scale ETO game. The rules are a monster, but you can find a very fun light set of rules for called "Classic Third Reich" (6 page rulebook again) if you look in the files on the geek.

Also see what other wargamers you know are playing, they may just teach you their favorite and then you don't need to buy it yourself!
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Jeremy Fridy
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In general I would recommend any game from Victory Point Games, but they have only done 2 theatre level wargames (3 if you count their Russian Front Solitaire Game, The Barbarossa Campaign) No Retreat! (which has a GMT upgrade,) and Paul Koenig's Fortress Europe, which looks to try to be a better take on the old AH game Fortress Europa
 
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