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Subject: A breakdown of the Brigand deck rss

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John Middleton
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In several posts, we have been discussing if this game can get repetitive and exactly how much variation exists in what a Hero can do cardplay wise.


As a concrete example of what I mean by the limited choices that player's have at this point, I am going to break down a character deck in detail. Now, some decks have more options than this, but most of them are fairly balanced choice wise at the moment. Also, card interplay between classes can often provide buffs or other options to enhance some actions. They would be fully dependent upon other players having such cards, and choosing to play them over other card plays. I will leave the details of such to other posters to explore.

First off, a couple points to bear in mind.

1.) Most decks feature cards in the Green Flame upgrades that are duplicates of white Flame cards that are in the base deck. This lets you do some limited deck tuning to suit your playstyle. The Soldier features all new cards.

2.) Some cards are what I call general utility cards and are usually present in all basic white decks. These include the movement cards Sprint and Hustle, the interrupt I'll Take That, and a basic, no frills Attack card. Some decks will leave out one or two of these, others will feature multiples of them.

3.) Interrupts can only be played during the Darkness cycle, and are therefore dependent on whether an enemy action makes their play useful and whether you have a free action bar space for them. There is little choice in their play, if you have one and it benefits you, you'll usually play it. They don't make an impact on you Hero Cycle card choice aside from thinking about keeping a slot or two open for them for later use.



Ok, lets take a look at the Brigand deck.



30 cards total, we won't count the Reference card that isn't playable.

5 Green Flame Upgrade cards of which two are duplicates of white Flame cards, so that you can tailor you deck to your style, sort of.

New cards are Shadow's Friend - an interrupt, Lost in a Crowd - an interrupt, and Shadowstep - a reaction. The other two cards are duplicates of Like a Reed in the Wind and Suicide Run. Since my focus here is the basic white deck that's all I will say about the upgrades aside from them only actually adding on additional Hero Cycle card that is different.


Looking at the base 25 white Flame cards then:

We have 3 Hustle cards that are utility movement cards that you can play as a reaction or action and will generally combo with something else to get away from enemies after you hit them

We have a single Sprint card, that is also a utility movement card, but it takes up an Action to play it, and therefore is much more situational.

We have a single I'll Take That interrupt and then a single basic Attack card. Both okay, but better options usually exist. Honestly, these would likely be the first two cards to be considered for removal when adding Green cards to the deck.


For those keeping count that's 6 cards down out of 25.

Next, I'm going to pull out the rest of the Brigand specific white Flame interrupts. These can only be played during a Darkness cycle, and if you can use them at that point then it is usually a no-brainer to go ahead and do so. Like I say, it is really dependent upon whether you meet the requirements to play them and if you have the space on you bar.

We have 2 Now You See Me, which let you dodge attacks, 1 Like a Reed which makes attacks directed at you hit an enemy instead, and 1 Fool's Gambit that lets you immediately counterattack, though you probably won't since it will break your Shadow ongoing.


That's 10 cards down - 15 left in the white Flame.

There are 2 One With the Dark and 1 Shadowslip. Both of these cards' primary purpose is too put the Brigand into the Shadows Ongoing state as prep for other attack cards. They can also be combo-ed to provide fate dice.

12 cards left.

Next we have three cards that are basically non-combat skill related.

Bloodletting lets you cure the poison status from a hero

Unravel lets you draw 2 treasure tokens instead of one, or can be combo-ed with Cunning to add an extra 1d10 for non-combat checks

Cunning simply adds 1d10 for non-combat checks, usually for doing some Quest related checks or attempting trap disarms.



So it is down to 9 remaining cards that are used to form most attacks and combos.

2 copies of Shadow's Reach for movement and attack out of Shadows generally. This card combos with almost everything as an Optional, so your major choice comes down to what other card to play with it

2 copies of Shadow's Touch - for massive damage, and usually reserved for the bread and butter Shadows -> Reach -> Touch combo

2 copies of Dirty Tactics which is a Hamstring type attack that halves an enemies movement and does one damage. It is an Action and has no combo Optional, though you could play Reactions with it. Its use is very situational, limited to Bosses, minis and Captains, since the one damage will kill a minion. It does have Range:Weapon, so could be used with a Ranged Weapon and , along with the Attack card, is their only Ranged capable card.

Next you have the two AOE attacks Suicide Run and Dark Reaver, which both benefit heavily from having Shadows ongoing up and can combo with Shadow's Reach. Both are Actions and shine when there are lots on minions that match their area. They can generate a ton of threat for the Brigand if you are indiscriminate with them.

The last card in Unseen Ally. It requires being in Shadows and provides a buff to another Hero. It can combo with Shadow's Reach to provide the Reach effects without breaking Shadows.



So there you go. Ultimately, the Brigand deck needs to get into Shadows with one of the three cards, and then uses Shadow's Reach in combo with one of three other cards ( Touch, Suicide, or Reaver) with an occasional Dirty Tactics thrown in. Four main attack options, though the two AoEs are threat level critical.

The rest of the deck is either movement cards which you combo if you can, interrupts that are restricted in play, or non-combat check bonuses.




edit -forgot an "n" guess which one for a candybar!!!!


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Remi Bureau
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I think this is a pretty accurate deck analysis, but I just wanted to comment about Fool's Gambit.

If a monster attacks you, you're not in Shadows anyways (if you were you've obviously been noticed), so using Fool's Gambit at this point is a given, if you have the open space to play it.

Also, not sure what you mean about the combo Unseen Ally with Shadow's Reach providing the Reach's effect without breaking Shadows?
You can play Unseen Ally after having played Shadow's Reach, but you're out of Shadows afterwards, and your not passing Reach's ability or bonus to another hero, you're doing Reach, and right after you're giving Unseen Ally's bonus to another hero.

This combo sounds very situational, because you could play it the other way around without needing a combo, with the same result but the other Hero would have to attack before your Reach...
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Michael Cozzolino
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DegenerateElite wrote:

We have a single Sprint card, that is also a utility movement card, but it takes up an Action to play it, and therefore is much more situational.

edit -forgot an "n" guess which one for a candybar!!!!




Now wheres my candy bar.
 
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Bryan Bonin
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I haven't followed any of the discussions your referencing, so I don't know what has been mentioned. That said, let me remind you that your forgetting the Agent cards. I love the fact that they are difficult to acquire so that in addition to being a useful card in your deck, it's also a sort of trophy.


Also, if I may quickly compare customization to say Pathfinder Adventure card game.

1. When you customized your deck in Pathfinder a lot of what you were putting in was equipment which is fully upgradable in Myth.

2. I felt like the pacing was wrong with Pathfinder, I would obtain so many great cards in the first 3 scenarios that the cards I'd obtain on the last 2 scenarios of an adventure were pointless fluff.

3. It was so easy to gain a card in Pathfinder it didn't feel rewarding or urgent to try to gain them.

In Myth the pacing is perfect, you really feel like your earning what your able to customize. In Myth you can't wait to play the next quest to see if you earn the one item/card/agent/title you've been wanting so badly, and when you finally get there everyone is high fiving eachother ready to celebrate!



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John Middleton
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vazzucious wrote:
DegenerateElite wrote:

We have a single Sprint card, that is also a utility movement card, but it takes up an Action to play it, and therefore is much more situational.

edit -forgot an "n" guess which one for a candybar!!!!




Now wheres my candy bar.



D'oh! That's an entirely seperate "n". Uggh.

Candy is in the mail....maybe.
 
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John Middleton
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Aperfectcleanup wrote:
I haven't followed any of the discussions your referencing, so I don't know what has been mentioned. That said, let me remind you that your forgetting the Agent cards. I love the fact that they are difficult to acquire so that in addition to being a useful card in your deck, it's also a sort of trophy.


Also, if I may quickly compare customization to say Pathfinder Adventure card game.

1. When you customized your deck in Pathfinder a lot of what you were putting in was equipment which is fully upgradable in Myth.

2. I felt like the pacing was wrong with Pathfinder, I would obtain so many great cards in the first 3 scenarios that the cards I'd obtain on the last 2 scenarios of an adventure were pointless fluff.

3. It was so easy to gain a card in Pathfinder it didn't feel rewarding or urgent to try to gain them.

In Myth the pacing is perfect, you really feel like your earning what your able to customize. In Myth you can't wait to play the next quest to see if you earn the one item/card/agent/title you've been wanting so badly, and when you finally get there everyone is high fiving eachother ready to celebrate!





Sort of true. There are no Agents or cards yet available until we see the second shipments, so we don't know what they may add. They may only have cards that are viable for a few Hero classes or the card they provide may be another Interupt or some such situational card and not present more Hero Cycle options.

The items require that you get titles in order to keep one per title between games. To get a title you forfeit adding a new card to you deck. The rulebook does mention stored items carrying forward between quests, but it is really unclear if this refers only to items you keep per title earned, or if stored means equiped. If you keep all equiped items, then multiple titles really don't have a ton of benefits aside from some choice on which you take each game and having some extra potions or something. If it means you have to earn a 5 titles to keep all five equpiped gear slots that are upgraded, then man....that will take a looong time. 15 Acts in Story Quests without even adding cards to your deck.

It takes three game sessions playing the three acts in a Story succesfully to be able to take any upgrade right now.


 
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John Middleton
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Ok, just because it was bugging me, I hunted back on the forum posts about equipment to this:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1138256/question-about-w...



Inbetween the Acts of a Story questline you keep all you equiped gear.

Once you finish the Story or between any other games you only get to keep 1 item per Title earned.


So it will take a looooong time to earn the right to keep a full set of gear. It will be butter knifes and sticks most of the time.

Which incidentally, is something I never really liked about the equipment. Your Hero is highly skilled and can do multiple crazy and specialized actions right out of the gate with no upgrades whatsoever, but a buter knife is what you have for gear. Give me a break. It's like a starting character joke that got carried much too far.
 
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John Middleton
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RemiBureau wrote:
I think this is a pretty accurate deck analysis, but I just wanted to comment about Fool's Gambit.

If a monster attacks you, you're not in Shadows anyways (if you were you've obviously been noticed), so using Fool's Gambit at this point is a given, if you have the open space to play it.

Also, not sure what you mean about the combo Unseen Ally with Shadow's Reach providing the Reach's effect without breaking Shadows?
You can play Unseen Ally after having played Shadow's Reach, but you're out of Shadows afterwards, and your not passing Reach's ability or bonus to another hero, you're doing Reach, and right after you're giving Unseen Ally's bonus to another hero.

This combo sounds very situational, because you could play it the other way around without needing a combo, with the same result but the other Hero would have to attack before your Reach...



A monster can attack you if you are in Shadows by passing a notice test. It does not automatically exempt you from attack.

With Uneen Ally I think the layout of the card is messed up. You combo it as an option after playing Reach and it buffs another Hero. At the end of the effect description it says "Brigand stays in Shadows." This would be useless if you played Ally without the combo, since it would not break you Shadows anyway. That would only happen with an attack.

It also would mean the combo is pointless, since Ally is a Reaction that you could play anytime without a combo.

So the benefit of the combo must be that it allows an attack with Reach, the buff from Ally, and you stay in Shadows.

As a matter of fact, this ability of the card is discussed under the Tricky Cards box for the Brigand on page 29. It does talk about passing the Shadows +2 fAte bonus along too, which is just odd.

Like I say, very bad layout on this card. Pretty sure there are posts discussing this problem.
 
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Endevor Rovedne
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Quote:

A monster can attack you if you are in Shadows by passing a notice test. It does not automatically exempt you from attack.


The monster can only make a notice check if he start the DC adjacent to you, if he is not he completely ignore you.
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Tobias Loeffler
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Disguise your rant as an elaborate / objective "analysis" - fail!
 
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John Middleton
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nimmzwei wrote:
Disguise your rant as an elaborate / objective "analysis" - fail!


It's tough to even respond to such a pointless comment, but what exactly do you find non-objective or lacking in the above.


Please provide some details based upon your experience playing this deck.
 
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John Middleton
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Endevor wrote:
Quote:

A monster can attack you if you are in Shadows by passing a notice test. It does not automatically exempt you from attack.


The monster can only make a notice check if he start the DC adjacent to you, if he is not he completely ignore you.


You are, of course, correct.
 
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Tobias Loeffler
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DegenerateElite wrote:
nimmzwei wrote:
Disguise your rant as an elaborate / objective "analysis" - fail!


It's tough to even respond to such a pointless comment, but what exactly do you find non-objective or lacking in the above.


Please provide some details based upon your experience playing this deck.


Let me just quote you from a few threats here on BGG concerning MYTH:

"I have lots of concerns and complaints about this game..."

"And the final little point, is that this game seems to be little more than "Move and Play a Card", after discussing with the other players which card will combo best with what they have. Sorry if this all seems a bit rambling..."

"People seem to really enjoy the current design trend of card play being equivalent to player choice, which it is not."

Yeah, no agenda on your part. See this now. Sorry. Peace.
 
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John Middleton
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Except that I opened this post by saying that it was an analysis to back up my stance that there are less choices in card play them many are admitting too.

Regardless of my beliefs, the analysis of all the cards is truthful and presents issues that have been born out by game play.

Cite specific examples from the post that you disagree with based upon you experience playing or bugger off.

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Naomi Nabbit
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Endevor wrote:
The monster can only make a notice check if he start the DC adjacent to you, if he is not he completely ignore you.

Oh, really? We were playing it that whenever a monster moved next to you, it could pass a notice test to notice you, and if it noticed you, it might switch priority. I guess that was wrong.

Also, do notice checks "dispel" shadows, or do they simply allow that one target to attack you?
 
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T France
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In another thread it was mentioned there were 9 Crawler melees and 6 Crawler ranged.

The Grubbers listed 5 of each pose.
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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DegenerateElite wrote:
Ok, just because it was bugging me, I hunted back on the forum posts about equipment to this:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1138256/question-about-w...



Inbetween the Acts of a Story questline you keep all you equiped gear.

Once you finish the Story or between any other games you only get to keep 1 item per Title earned.


So it will take a looooong time to earn the right to keep a full set of gear. It will be butter knifes and sticks most of the time.

Which incidentally, is something I never really liked about the equipment. Your Hero is highly skilled and can do multiple crazy and specialized actions right out of the gate with no upgrades whatsoever, but a buter knife is what you have for gear. Give me a break. It's like a starting character joke that got carried much too far.

This is Brian's take on the design choice:
Quote:
I have never liked the idea that the damage a fighter does comes from the weapon. In my experience with combat and combat sports, the person's skill is far more important than the weapon itself (until the advent of the gun). RPGs understand this and circumvent this with a skill that increases.

What we have done is imagine that skill as a deck of 25 cards. Novice Heroes have the base deck. They may or may not have the answer (ability card) to play in the circumstance or not. As Heroes level up they will be able to streamline that deck so they have the answer they want in their hand more often when those circumstance come reoccur.

The difference is that at no time do we delegate the potency (damage) of a Hero to the weapon. The weapon grants them a greater chance to effect change in combat. Our argument is that damage is not so much the weapon, but how you use it.

[...]

(It) allow(s) us to control the power curve of the Heroes as they grow a bit better. We don't have to worry about weird interactions with powerful weapons, because the power is in the Heroes. This allows us to offer all kinds of cool treasure, and not worry about breaking the game. Will Heroes notice the difference between the Horrifying Spear and the Fire-place poker? Oh my goodness, yes! But they will notice the jump to journeyman abilities a whole lot more. And these ability allow them to actually define how their Hero plays. They aren't just a more powerful way to do the same thing they did before. It changes how the Hero plays.

In many other games, the balance is between the monsters and the weapons. In Myth, it is between the monsters and the Heroes (the Hero Decks more specifically).
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Mathue Faulkner
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I can't wait to get my game (comes today), break it out, and play it a few times so I can add to this type of discussion a bit more...
 
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Adam Canning
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DegenerateElite wrote:
There are no Agents or cards yet available until we see the second shipments, so we don't know what they may add.


Donnchadh's Card


and Inquisitor Alger
Quote:

If defeated, he grants the Heroes an Agent ability card named Master Tactician. It can only be played in the 1st action space, but if it is played then the card in the 2nd action space costs 0AP.

"https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1700755582/myth-0/posts/777825"
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Steve Kozlowski
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dahak wrote:
DegenerateElite wrote:
There are no Agents or cards yet available until we see the second shipments, so we don't know what they may add.


Donnchadh's Card


and Inquisitor Alger
Quote:

If defeated, he grants the Heroes an Agent ability card named Master Tactician. It can only be played in the 1st action space, but if it is played then the card in the 2nd action space costs 0AP.

"https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1700755582/myth-0/posts/777825"


It's the kind of wording on this card that is driving people nuts, me included. What does "the hero receives the attack at +1 damage" mean? Did they mean to say "the hero makes the attack at +1 damage"? Because the wording is confusing. Does the hero take an extra damage from the attack he is reacting to? That's what it sounds like, but I'm not sure, because the card isn't played until after a successful enemy attack which sounds like it would be a bit late to increase the damage of an already completed attack... shake

And what does "This ability must be used to finish the Agent Donnchadh" mean? Does that mean the only way to kill the Agent permanently is by using this card? I guess so, but I'm not sure
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Bryan Bonin
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Thanks for finding that. It bring up a question though. You can only use this agent card to finish that boss? I thought you had to finish a boss to obtain an agent. Why add the card to your deck unless you plan on facing that boss over and over again?

Started writing this before the above quote was posted sorry
 
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Tony Pecorelli
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You can still use the counterattack against any enemy.

The extra text about Donnchadh is exclusive to when you face that figure.
 
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Aperfectcleanup wrote:
Thanks for finding that. It bring up a question though. You can only use this agent card to finish that boss? I thought you had to finish a boss to obtain an agent. Why add the card to your deck unless you plan on facing that boss over and over again?

Started writing this before the above quote was posted sorry


Finish isn't defeat. If you defeat him [i.e. reduce to 0 blood] you get the card. If you use this card to defeat him he doesn't come back to bother you again. Which is necessary to end the quest chain he's associated with from what we've been told.

On the plus 1 damage thing. You play the card after being hit, take an extra damage and do a 2 damage range 1 attack back.

Here's his stat card:
 
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Steve Kozlowski
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I figured the extra damage was to the hero, it's just worded so weird. You react "after a successful attack" but then modify the attack that you just took and reacted to... That's just bad as far as timing and wording goes. They should have done something more like "play when an attack is declared against this hero. The attack automatically hits and does +1 damage" (or something similar, you get where I'm going here). At least it would have been both clean and clear if it worked something like that.
 
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Josh Strickland
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I'm okay in principle with essentially Lvl:1 guys having limited options in combat, but I do agree some of the ratios might need work. In a couple 2p games now, we're triggering Loitering penalties about 25% of the time which seems ridiculous - I'm trying to do something and want to do something, but cannot draw the cards to do it. With the Archer last night I was stuck basically discarding Movement cards just to meet AP requirements.

In a 2p game, this creates a giant immersion problem for me. I can't make the Darkness meter increase so the Monsters on the Tile don't get to attack back - which means I can't play my Interrupts, keeping my hand clogged with unplayable cards that just get discarded.

Has there been any discussion anywhere about playing cards facedown from the hand to trigger basic attacks? Like a 1target/1dmg/1 AP attack with a -1D10 penalty by playing a card facedown from your hand would create a lot of flexibility for bad draws. I don't know if that breaks anything in the system, but I'm thinking about trying it.
 
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