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Subject: [Deck] No Frills rss

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Nelson Wong
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After seeing so many CI lists which shoot themselves in the foot trying to set up 7 pt turns or running AD combos, I decided to post the following list which I think is straight up better.


Identity: Haas-Bioroid: Cerebral Imaging

Cards: 49 / 45
Agenda points: 20 / 20
Influence: 15 / 15

Agenda (11)
3x Accelerated Beta Test
3x Efficiency Committee
2x Gila Hands Arcology
3x Project Vitruvius

Asset (3)
3x Jackson Howard ●●●

Ice (11)
3x Eli 1.0
3x Heimdall 1.0
2x Ichi 1.0
3x Viktor 2.0

Operation (24)
3x Archived Memories
3x Biotic Labor
3x Blue Level Clearance
3x Celebrity Gift ●●●●●●●●●
3x Green Level Clearance
3x Hedge Fund
3x Restructure
3x Shipment from SanSan ●●●


No flashy combos, hence the name.

Your deck is made up entirely of good taxing ice, and lots of money. Some of your money cards draw into more money cards. Archived Memories is glue - it is Shipment from SanSan when it's time to win, or it can be Celebrity Gift after they Siphon you. It can even be Eli 1.0 if they Parasite all your ice.

Plan A: Double Biotic, score EC. Then FA the rest with Shipment

Plan B: Biotic to FA

Weaknesses

Nerve Agent

Nerve Agent demands you purge every few turns. Luckily your ice will eat their clicks so this will give you a couple of non-purge turns to play with.

Vamp
Vamp is game over if they get you to 0. Luckily, since you are heavy on money cards, it is very rare that they can actually Vamp you to zero.

Sneakdoor

Quite often against Criminals with Sneakdoor, they can take 4 or 6 points off you very early before you ice all your centrals. This is not a problem usually as you can very often come back and still win. But for elimination rounds this could be less than ideal.

Keyhole

See above. Sometimes they can just win off a few Keyhole runs and there is not much you can do about it. This is especially a problem if they run it alongside Siphon and you can't defend both HQ and RnD at the same time. The only solution is to draw and play your second Bioroid on RnD and hope they don't win before you do. The good news is that they can likely only Keyhole you once a turn as long as you have a single bioroid, so you do have some time to find the second.

Double Siphon turns

This is very rare. They would need to do it in the midgame when you actually have a large enough hand to care. Early on you can just recover without discarding. The thing is, with the amount of money that this deck is capable of generating, I usually don't care about Siphon at all, which is a nice change. The turn after double Biotic EC is the turn where this could hurt. This can be played around by just making sure you have enough money before going for it.

Variations

Profiteering over Gila, switch ice to Wall of Static, Rototurret, NEXT Bronze and Grim

This used to be the build I went with, until runners in my meta started to run pumpable breakers or Knight/Crypsis rigs. This is amazing against Anarch rig + Datasuckers. Profiteering is strong, and I have even won a game after being Vamped to 0 because I had EC scored (unused), a Shipment in hand with an Archived Memories. Overall, I prefer Bioroids for more late game staying power.

Tollbooth and Anon Tip over Heimdall and Celebrity Gift

This is actually very similar. Anon Tip for slightly more draw power. Tollbooth needs no introduction. I ultimately chose to stay with Heimdall and Gift because I like consistently getting enough creds to score EC (you need 12 creds plus your hand size after all). Also, Heimdall makes for more resilient centrals in combination with the other bioroids. Cares less about Femme.

SanSan City Grid over Celeb Gift

Allows for more aggressive scoring. However, since I run relatively few ice, it's hard to defend it. No runner is going to allow you more than a single score with it, so I don't think it's worth it.

Anon Tip over Jackson

This is a side-grade. I prefer Jackson's all round utility and extra mileage when facing Noise/Keyhole.



Thoughts and general feedback welcome.
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Grzegorz Pijas
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Nothing new here, there is a version with profiteering instead of gila.
And i think sth like this won one of the sc.
My friend plays it but with grim, rototurret and its really strong deck.
 
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Yi Sheng Siow
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we posted nearly the exact same deck within a few hours... worth trying.
 
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Nushura
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This has the same error as the previous deck: 11 porous and few ice. One in 4-5 is ice, so you will probably only have 1 in your starting hand. What do you ice in first turn? Hq and get indexed/keyholed? R&d and get syphoned? Also, what about decks that derezz ice? Or what do you do against a kit deck? You need to stack and rezz at leat 2 ice in each server. That is at on average 20 cards and 24 credits (assuming an iCE every 5 cards, and all of them being cost 5 to rezz). How fast can you get that?
 
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Nelson Wong
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Nushura wrote:
This has the same error as the previous deck: 11 porous and few ice. One in 4-5 is ice, so you will probably only have 1 in your starting hand. What do you ice in first turn? Hq and get indexed/keyholed? R&d and get syphoned? Also, what about decks that derezz ice? Or what do you do against a kit deck? You need to stack and rezz at leat 2 ice in each server. That is at on average 20 cards and 24 credits (assuming an iCE every 5 cards, and all of them being cost 5 to rezz). How fast can you get that?


As mentioned in the OP, you don't care about Siphon unless it's two of them in the same turn AND you have a large hand. Given the number of economy cards, you can very easily bounce back.

All the ice is porous and there is only 11, but the reason this does not matter is that each access they do get is either click expensive or credit expensive.

Kit is not a problem. They can get in, sure, but they are still paying through the roof. If they run Yog, all the ice will laugh at it.

Your turns are made up entirely of playing econ ops (2 of which draw you cards), or drawing cards. So I usually have 1 ice on HQ and RnD within the first 3 turns. What you ice on your first turn depends on your matchup and your starting hand. If I suspect Anarch or RnD attack, then it's RnD. If I have an agenda heavy draw, it's HQ.

Really this is common sense, as is knowing when you need to rez ice.

I do think it's worth repeating that Siphon is not crippling, nor is Shutdown. Keyhole can be crippling, but even a single ice restricts them to one run a turn. By the time they get a breaker you will have the second ice and even while they are getting in, the runs are expensive.

In the 50+ games I have played, there are less than 5 where the runner had won or scored 6 before I was able to double ice up and effectively lock them out.

Even if you feel the need to ETR every time the runner runs to be comfortable, simply switch the ice suite as suggested in the OP.

I prefer the bioroids, because I just don't feel the need to stop every access when Siphon is no longer crippling.

If you still need more convincing, we can set up a time and duke it out on Octgn. You can decide for yourself by playing against it.
 
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Nushura
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I am sorry, I completely disagree with your post. The main problem seems to be that you think that Runners can only go through ice with either i) icebreakers or ii) spend clicks, and that they must pay in full. There are a gazillion ways for the runner to go through (parasite, datasucker, inside job, sneakdoor beta,...). Any decent runner will use several of those.

In general there is NO way for the corp to block the runner to enter (if it were this game would be VERY boring). While the runner gets his tricks going, you must save 12 credits, and a good runner will not let you.

I would love to play against you on OCTGN but unfortunately I have a mac and can't install it. In any case, if we ever meet I will gladly love to show you wrong. Good luck, keep on playing against more opponents, and some will end up showing it to you.
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Nelson Wong
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Datasucker + Anarch rigs I have played against a dime a dozen. The deck taxes sucker tokens very well.

Inside job is a oneshot - I don't think a oneshot single access is really worth worrying about - even if it is on RnD with Interfaces out.

Parasite just means I may need to spend Archived Memories fetching back ICE. It means it will take me longer to win, but has not been a problem to date.

Sneakdoor means I need a single ice on Archives. Then they're back to 1 run a turn if they break with clicks. If not, they're paying with breakers. If they run Parasite, see above regarding Archived Memories. It spreads ICE thinner, but it's not like I haven't played against Andy/Gabe before. I have, and have won. Of course, they do score more points than non-Criminal runners, but I do not lose more often against it than any typical corp would.

I specifically mention in the OP that this deck does give up more points than standard FA lists. All you've done so far is list out a couple more ways in which runners go about getting those points. I'm not saying runners will get shut out - they won't. They will be taxed, and taxed hard. As for the runner "not letting" me save 12 creds, I don't think there has ever been a game where I didn't have enough creds.

I'm not sure if you meant to do so, but it almost seems like you're implying that my opponents are either somehow subpar or are too few. I can assure you this is not the case as I have played this in real life league nights/tournaments as well as Octgn, against the full spectrum of runner decks.

This deck works, and works well.
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Yi Sheng Siow
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any thoughts on

1. subliminal vs glc?

2. profiteering vs gila?

3. project wotan vs gila + abt?


i'm bringing the deck with subliminals, profiteering and project wotan to the weekly tonight.
 
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Nelson Wong
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1. subliminal vs glc?

I think this is a mistake. There really isn't a reason why they wouldn't run every turn. GLC cycles, and that's more important than a couple of creds extra that you may or may not get.

2. profiteering vs gila?

As mentioned in the OP, profiteering is amazing and works well in this deck. However, you do need to switch the ice away from bioroids to ETR ice and Grim. There's not much point running bioroids to tax them and then subsidize their runs with 3 bad pub. It does allow for explosive recovery after Siphon/Vamp so there is utility there. Ultimately I prefer bioroids because they have a better late game.

3. project wotan vs gila + abt?

Trying to score a 3pter requires 2 shipments and a full EC. This is too many hoops to jump through for my taste, especially I don't really see the need for extra deck slots. Plus I don't want to give up a 3pter before I get my ice set up, so this one is a no-go for me.
 
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Yi Sheng Siow
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_Flickerwisp wrote:
1. subliminal vs glc?

I think this is a mistake. There really isn't a reason why they wouldn't run every turn. GLC cycles, and that's more important than a couple of creds extra that you may or may not get.

2. profiteering vs gila?

As mentioned in the OP, profiteering is amazing and works well in this deck. However, you do need to switch the ice away from bioroids to ETR ice and Grim. There's not much point running bioroids to tax them and then subsidize their runs with 3 bad pub. It does allow for explosive recovery after Siphon/Vamp so there is utility there. Ultimately I prefer bioroids because they have a better late game.

3. project wotan vs gila + abt?

Trying to score a 3pter requires 2 shipments and a full EC. This is too many hoops to jump through for my taste, especially I don't really see the need for extra deck slots. Plus I don't want to give up a 3pter before I get my ice set up, so this one is a no-go for me.


1. i find that subliminals are good for celebrity gifts, and in the late game you can keep them in hand after they recur in order to dilute HQ to fight against HQ glory runs. but i also see that GLC cycling is useful. GLC is quite low impact though, not actually very profitable. i'm not certain on this. once i have double stacked the two main centrals, it drains a click for the runner if he wants to run unprofitably or run on archives. and eventually i find that i will have at least one ice on archives, at which point, the subliminals really put pressure on the runner(especially in multiples).

2. i mean play profiteering without switching up the ice. only activate it to get the creds in the fringe case that you need to score the last points with biotics. i can never see myself using gila with this deck. there's no time to gila at all.

3. the project wotan can be scored by (1) full ec + 2 shipments, (2) biotic + 2 ec counters + 2 shipments(i did this in the weekly event), (3) 2 biotics + 1 ec counter + 1 shipment, when you jackson back the biotics and happen to draw them again, or you archived memories the biotics because you don't draw the other shipments. also, this allows you to win 1 turn faster compared to scoring 4 agendas. scoring 4 agendas always takes 4 turns. scoring 3 agendas takes 3 turns. the extra slot can be used for ice or GLC/subliminal.

extra thoughts: i think i like 1 rototurret and/or 1 enigma to hedge slightly against atman which is a bad matchup for any pure bioroid defense.

i played 4 games with my version(subliminals, pwotan, profiteering being the only differences) at the weekly event. 10-4 win, 6-10 loss 0-10 loss and 2-10 loss. all games were against good players with competitive decks. the deck is vulnerable to good pulls from HQ, which all my losses featured, and as mentioned, the pure bioroid defense is soft to atman.

i think one play that i overlooked, but is possibly really important, is calculate creds, install jackson, jackson draw, jackson draw(exceeding handsize limit), discard excess agendas and shuffle them in when jackson is run.

the deck is incredibly strong if it draws well, but having few ice makes it inherently vulnerable to the early game siphon/keyhole/medium conundrum, as well as leaking possibly a lot of points from centrals. i haven't played enough games to really judge it's expected power relative to the other competitive decks, but my gut feeling is that it's tier 1.5 if played well.
 
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Nelson Wong
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siowy wrote:
_Flickerwisp wrote:
1. subliminal vs glc?

I think this is a mistake. There really isn't a reason why they wouldn't run every turn. GLC cycles, and that's more important than a couple of creds extra that you may or may not get.

2. profiteering vs gila?

As mentioned in the OP, profiteering is amazing and works well in this deck. However, you do need to switch the ice away from bioroids to ETR ice and Grim. There's not much point running bioroids to tax them and then subsidize their runs with 3 bad pub. It does allow for explosive recovery after Siphon/Vamp so there is utility there. Ultimately I prefer bioroids because they have a better late game.

3. project wotan vs gila + abt?

Trying to score a 3pter requires 2 shipments and a full EC. This is too many hoops to jump through for my taste, especially I don't really see the need for extra deck slots. Plus I don't want to give up a 3pter before I get my ice set up, so this one is a no-go for me.


1. i find that subliminals are good for celebrity gifts, and in the late game you can keep them in hand after they recur in order to dilute HQ to fight against HQ glory runs. but i also see that GLC cycling is useful. GLC is quite low impact though, not actually very profitable. i'm not certain on this. once i have double stacked the two main centrals, it drains a click for the runner if he wants to run unprofitably or run on archives. and eventually i find that i will have at least one ice on archives, at which point, the subliminals really put pressure on the runner(especially in multiples).

2. i mean play profiteering without switching up the ice. only activate it to get the creds in the fringe case that you need to score the last points with biotics. i can never see myself using gila with this deck. there's no time to gila at all.

3. the project wotan can be scored by (1) full ec + 2 shipments, (2) biotic + 2 ec counters + 2 shipments(i did this in the weekly event), (3) 2 biotics + 1 ec counter + 1 shipment, when you jackson back the biotics and happen to draw them again, or you archived memories the biotics because you don't draw the other shipments. also, this allows you to win 1 turn faster compared to scoring 4 agendas. scoring 4 agendas always takes 4 turns. scoring 3 agendas takes 3 turns. the extra slot can be used for ice or GLC/subliminal.

extra thoughts: i think i like 1 rototurret and/or 1 enigma to hedge slightly against atman which is a bad matchup for any pure bioroid defense.

i played 4 games with my version(subliminals, pwotan, profiteering being the only differences) at the weekly event. 10-4 win, 6-10 loss 0-10 loss and 2-10 loss. all games were against good players with competitive decks. the deck is vulnerable to good pulls from HQ, which all my losses featured, and as mentioned, the pure bioroid defense is soft to atman.

i think one play that i overlooked, but is possibly really important, is calculate creds, install jackson, jackson draw, jackson draw(exceeding handsize limit), discard excess agendas and shuffle them in when jackson is run.

the deck is incredibly strong if it draws well, but having few ice makes it inherently vulnerable to the early game siphon/keyhole/medium conundrum, as well as leaking possibly a lot of points from centrals. i haven't played enough games to really judge it's expected power relative to the other competitive decks, but my gut feeling is that it's tier 1.5 if played well.


1. Good players won't get sucked into making bad runs just to stop Subliminals coming back. Celebrity Gift is not a reason to run Subliminal, nor is their ability to act as HQ fodder (sometimes). I just don't see how an untrashable PAD puts pressure on a runner - and this is best case scenario.

In comparison, GLC, although it is a low impact card, it does get you money and cards. It accelerates you. It's definitely the first card I would cut if I wanted to add more ice or if something better comes along, but right now I don't think there is a better alternative for this slot.

2. Gila is good. I can safely Biotic and score it very early on and be able to hit it for 3 creds if I have spare clicks. It allows you to build your bank gradually since your early game is about finding enough ice and rezzing them. Profiteering is good but it's not good early on when you care most about the creds. The only reason I would run it over Gila is if I don't care about the bad pub and intend to take the full 15. This means switching the ice to ETR and Grim, and I'm not too happy with this package anymore. Especially with the abundance of Faerie/Knight in runner decks.

3. My personal preference is I would rather minimize the number of conditions I need to score. Having to wait for double Biotic is already going to take up a lot of time. After I score the EC, I'd much rather score every time I have Shipment and an agenda - not wait around and jump through hoops to get an extra point for my trouble. I'm not going to be needing the extra slot so I don't see the benefit here. That's not even mention the number of times the runner will snag this and suddenly only need 3 scores to win as opposed to 4.

I do think Atman would fare the best against this ice setup. However, all of the ice has multiple subroutines, so it's not like Atman can get in for free. In this matchup you have more than enough time to double ice HQ and RnD along with a single Ichi on archives to tax Datasucker runs. Also, their primary attack is RnD, and lots of games I'm able to just draw the majority of my agendas, making their RnD runs very bad.

I do agree that Keyhole and Medium are the things that punish this deck the hardest for less than stellar draws. However, unlike most corps, you get to shrug off Siphon as though it is nothing, so that's a nice luxury to have.

I have also found that this deck tends to leak out points more than the absolute top tier NBN decks - so it's definitely a step behind them in elimination rounds. It's still very solid, and in terms of win %, I think it's comparable to the best corp decks.
 
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Nelson Wong
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Just as an update, I brought my exact list in the OP to a store championship and it went undefeated all day. 4-0 in Swiss, won the first elimination match and then scooped in the finals as I already had the bye from a previous store champs.

Deck was solid all day, and I don't think there's anything I'd change right now.
 
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Yi Sheng Siow
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Did you overdraw with jackson to discard and reshuffle agendas at any point?How did the hq hitting go? Or did they try rnd more?

Congrats on the win. How many players were there?
 
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Nelson Wong
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There were 16 players.

I was forced to do the overdraw/discard/Jackson on one occasion. I had been Siphoned down to 3 and my HQ only had an Eli. I had 8 cards in hand with 3 agendas. So a simple Jackson cred cred let me discard all 3 and shuffle them back.

I did have trouble against one Gabe deck which spread me thin with Sneakdoor, had Siphoned me 3 times by turn 6 (I still recovered but it delayed the double Biotic EC which I had ready).

I was able to score EC, but then he dropped HQ interface. He could only Sneakdoor once a turn so he had to effectively hit all his points in 3 tries (he was on 0 and I had 3 shipments with enough agendas). I had 6 agendas in an 18 card hand so his odds were good. In the end, however, he got to 4 and I won the race.

Most people went for RnD which is usually the incorrect choice against this deck, as you draw so many cards and play all the money operations and ice. HQ density is almost always higher than RnD. Most decks don't have HQ multi-access, so they are limited to single hits each time.
 
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