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Subject: The "scout effect" rss

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Richard Ham
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The way the rules are written, one can infer that if Minion A (the scout) is next to Minion B (the follower) when it starts moving, the scout will pull the follower toward its target, and the follower doesn't really have a choice, even if the follower cannot reach the target and had better options available.

Myself, I think this is kind of cool, but I suspect it's not the real intent of the rules. But if it is, the rules should make that clear... so as such, would this modification to the rules as written to provide more clarity be correct? (my additions are bolded)

pg36 wrote:
GROUP MOVEMENT
Players begin with the Minion closest to a target and decide where it is moving first. If multiple Minions are within range, pick the one in the middle (or if there is no middle one, the one that is most closely aligned orthogonally on the grid with the hero). Once the scout has a target, it moves.

Any adjacent Minions to the Scout before it moved are referred to as its Followers, and after the Scout has moved, one at a time, each Follower will do its best to follow the Scout as closely as possible, towards the same target. In short, the Scout's target becomes the Follower's target, and the Follower will ignore all other decision making regarding distance, priority, or availability, to get as close to the Scout's target as possible.

When the Scout and its Followers are done moving, select the next Minion closest to a Hero (who has yet to move) and repeat the process. This may or may not be in the same group of Monsters. The next group may or may not choose the same target.


Does that sound right?
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Phil Seale
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That is exactly how I interpreted it and have been playing. Hopefully you're right!
 
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J Larkin
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Also the way we have played.
 
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Jeremy Steward
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Like I said in the other topic

The Scout effect is mostly for convience, to make it easier to figure out where monsters go. I dont think it trumps everything. IMO monsters only follow the scout if it can reach the scouts target or if it has no targets it can reach.

I may be wrong, but it doesnt make much sense to me for the scout effect to make monsters make subobtimal moves - its doesnt seem to be the intent.

We will have to see how often this case actually happens. And really, this game is such that you can play it how you want. In your case, you are making things a tiny bit easier.
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Remi Bureau
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I think that, if your premise is correct, then your new definition is also correct.

That being said, sincr the "scout" mechanic has been added only to accelerate the DC, I think the followers would follow only if they can reachthe target. If they can reach the same target as the scout, then yes, no thinking on their part and they follow. If they can't reach the target, then (at least that's my understanding), they don't follow and become a scout themselves.

I think the base rule here should be : All monsters try to attack a hero in each DC.
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Jeremy Steward
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RemiBureau wrote:
I think the base rule here should be : All monsters try to attack a hero in each DC.


I agree with this 100%
 
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Adam
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We've been playing it exactly how the OP describes. Would love an official ruling on this.
 
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Richard Ham
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Deadwolf wrote:
The Scout effect is mostly for convience, to make it easier to figure out where monsters go. I dont think it trumps everything. IMO monsters only follow the scout if it can reach the scouts target or if it has no targets it can reach.


You could entirely be correct, but the problem is that the way the rules are written currently, you'd be entirely wrong.

Hence still needing official clarification, hence the dedicated thread...
 
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Richard Ham
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RemiBureau wrote:
I think that, if your premise is correct, then your new definition is also correct.

That being said, sincr the "scout" mechanic has been added only to accelerate the DC, I think the followers would follow only if they can reachthe target.

Right, unfortunately the rules simply state that the follower follows, period. No caveats, no further explanations, no nothing, so one has to assume that what you say is wrong (even though I suspect it's right).

Personally, I think the scout rule as it's written in the manual adds a lot of flavour and makes the monsters feel more "alive" with personality ("hey you, you're coming with me! shut up about that wizard over there, you're my wingman and we're going after the fighter, got it?!"), so I hope my supposition is right, but I suspect that's not the true intent... just another shortcoming of the rules. Hopefully Brian will make it clear in time. I asked him about it last weekend but hadn't heard back on it yet.
 
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Richard Ham
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Ruavin wrote:
I err on the side of the monsters making the best possible decision to get attacks. If following the scout rule does so, I use it. If following the scout rule would cause a monster to lose an attack, I don't.


Ah ha, but what if following the scout doesn't get the monster an attack, and ignoring the scout also doesn't get the monster an attack (i.e. the follower can't reach any target anywhere). What then? Even if my original supposition is wrong, there's still plenty of unanswered questions about this...
 
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Jeremy Steward
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Its funny because we were on the opposite sides of the coin when arguing the no rest for the weary setup (and a few other things - strict reading vs interpretation of intent).

In this case, monsters making suboptimal moves doesnt make
sense to me in both game play sense nor thematic sense "Lets just stand here and do nothing when i could have attacked that guy because my buddy went this way".

But yah, an official ruling would be nice.
 
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Richard Ham
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Deadwolf wrote:
Its funny because we were on the opposite sides of the coin when arguing the no rest for the weary setup (and a few other things - strict reading vs interpretation of intent).

Someday the rules 2.0 will be released and we can all move forward together in peace and harmony

Quote:
In this case, monsters making suboptimal moves doesnt make
sense to me in both game play sense nor thematic sense "Lets just stand here and do nothing when i could have attacked that guy because my buddy went this way".

I think it makes great thematic sense because in the heat of battle, it makes no sense to me that dumb brute monsters would always make exactly the most perfect, correct decision every single round. A human opponent controlling these critters wouldn't, so why should the AI. Plus, I think the "wingman" analogy stands up for thematic reasoning... the scout doesn't want to go face the scary hero alone, so he brings his buddy.

Quote:
But yah, an official ruling would be nice.

On that we can agree!
 
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Jeremy Steward
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An "in the middle" solution could be:

A monster follows the scout and if it cannot reach that target and still reach a different target with remaining MP, it does so.

I still maintain my original opinion but *shrugs*.
 
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Zach Strickland
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Another solution could be to use the intelligent characteristic. Have the smart ones go for another hero if they can't reach the scout's target while the instinct creatures blindly follow the scout.
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Mark Taraba
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I swear that the rules already say that the creatures count spaces to where they need to go to make an attack and switch to the next priority target if they can't make it to the one they were attempting. The soldier might be closer as thr bird flys, but if the creature needs to walk around behind him and doesnt have enough mps for that then they'll look for the next target which might actually be farther. The scout rule, they even say, is to speed up the darkness phase so you don't need to count out all the creatures. I'm guessing theres not an example where a monster group can't fit and the rest of the group goes somewhere else, but that would have been nice to clarify the point.
 
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Remi Bureau
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There is an example of group movement where one "follower" doesn't follow the scout, but it's because the hero is surrounded. To me, no matter the reason why the minion can't get to the hero, he'll try to find another one he can reach this cycle, if he can't reach anyone this cycle, then go through the priority list again, this time considering unavailable heroes.
 
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Brian Shotton
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rahdo wrote:
The way the rules are written, one can infer that if Minion A (the scout) is next to Minion B (the follower) when it starts moving, the scout will pull the follower toward its target, and the follower doesn't really have a choice, even if the follower cannot reach the target and had better options available.

Myself, I think this is kind of cool, but I suspect it's not the real intent of the rules. But if it is, the rules should make that clear... so as such, would this modification to the rules as written to provide more clarity be correct? (my additions are bolded)

pg36 wrote:
GROUP MOVEMENT
Players begin with the Minion closest to a target and decide where it is moving first. If multiple Minions are within range, pick the one in the middle (or if there is no middle one, the one that is most closely aligned orthogonally on the grid with the hero). Once the scout has a target, it moves.

Any adjacent Minions to the Scout before it moved are referred to as its Followers, and after the Scout has moved, one at a time, each Follower will do its best to follow the Scout as closely as possible, towards the same target. In short, the Scout's target becomes the Follower's target, and the Follower will ignore all other decision making regarding distance, priority, or availability, to get as close to the Scout's target as possible.

When the Scout and its Followers are done moving, select the next Minion closest to a Hero (who has yet to move) and repeat the process. This may or may not be in the same group of Monsters. The next group may or may not choose the same target.


Does that sound right?


This is exactly how it works.
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Jeremy Steward
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Wow, okay.

Interesting.

Definitely makes for a big difference between instinct and intelligent monsters.

Thanks
 
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Mark Taraba
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RemiBureau wrote:
There is an example of group movement where one "follower" doesn't follow the scout, but it's because the hero is surrounded. To me, no matter the reason why the minion can't get to the hero, he'll try to find another one he can reach this cycle, if he can't reach anyone this cycle, then go through the priority list again, this time considering unavailable heroes.

That might be true. I remember seeing an example where a captain goes toward a Brigand because the Soldier is already surrounded. I don't remember one where the same was for a follower and assumed that everyone here didn't miss it. I'll look at the examples closer tonight. Still, I feel the rules were pretty clear on this with or without an example. I think Rahdo has read the rules too many times that they've started to lose all meaning.
 
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Brad Richardson
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I thought the intent of the scout was to speed up gameplay. It's not much fun (at least to me) individually determining where 15 minions are going to move. If followers don't necessarily follow the scout because they have more optimal moves then I don't see the point in the mechanic, you might as well move them individually at that point.
 
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Drea Paulsen
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taraba wrote:
There is an example of group movement where one "follower" doesn't follow the scout, but it's because the hero is surrounded. To me, no matter the reason why the minion can't get to the hero, he'll try to find another one he can reach this cycle, if he can't reach anyone this cycle, then go through the priority list again, this time considering unavailable heroes.


As far as i know the movement is as fallow (try and bear with me I'm bad at explaining movement on a board with out photos to show what i mean lol)

The closest player is the Mage, One of the mobs that is closest to him is picked the scout and all mobs adjacent to him all now followers (lets say there are 4 followers) and ignore all other priorities(for now, I'll explain in a bit).

First you move the scout to the Mage, then one by one each of the followers if there is a space they can move. After 3 of the mobs move the Mage is now surrounded and has no free space adjacent for him to move. The last follower looks at the group and things "well dang no room for me -looks around- but that soldier is close and has room I'll start making my way over to him"

I go off of this because of what happened in on of the extended game play videos that was posted, were the crawler was making its way to one player (i think the soldier) with the group but on its last move it turned and headed to another (the ranger maybe?) because the soldier he was trying to move to was no longer available and ranger had a location that was available was only one MP away.
 
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Remi Bureau
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Deadwolf wrote:
Wow, okay.

Interesting.

Definitely makes for a big difference between instinct and intelligent monsters.

Thanks


You mean it their effectiveness? As in, Crawlers won't attack nearly as much as Grubbers?
I guess it's a good thing they have ranged guys.
 
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Brad Richardson
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That doesn't sound quite right to me. The instinct minions just pile on and get in each other's way. I thought all adjacents follow the scout. If they're instinct based they won't make room, if they're intelligent they will but regardless once a group of followers starts moving none of them will switch to something else.
 
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Drea Paulsen
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BRich83 wrote:
That doesn't sound quite right to me. The instinct minions just pile on and get in each other's way. I thought all adjacents follow the scout. If they're instinct based they won't make room, if they're intelligent they will but regardless once a group of followers starts moving none of them will switch to something else.


The crawlers would not make room but if the guys in the back have 1 MP left and they cant get to the guy there scout was going for but another play is 1 MP away then they would just take that one last step and be at that other player.

If there is no other player that is with in the range of the rest of there MP then they would just stay at the back of the pile hoping the get in on the action.

Edit: found were i saw the video
http://youtu.be/zeSRobsjWKY?t=6m40s
 
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Brad Richardson
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Ok yes, I'd agree with that. If he could actually do something move him but they all still pull as a group. By that I mean don't move the group, realize the straggler won't make it, and move him a completely different direction from his starting spot.
 
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