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Subject: My OP 6 Battle Report rss

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Stanton Lackey
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So, last night we had our OP 6 event. There was only one person in the running for the Deep Space 9 model so that was out of the question, we were playing purely for pride and a sweet looking Bajoran ship.

First, my fleet. I have affectionately named it ༼ つ◕_◕༽つ MOLLY ༼ つ◕_◕༽つ for those twitch chat users out there. (also using the United Force AO, sorry ColCarp, hope your jimmies aren't rustled too much).

4th Division Battleship- 36
Weyoun- 5
Invaluable Advice- 2
Omet'Iklan- 4
Ikat'Ika- 4
Dorsal Weapons Array- 3
Shroud- 1
-------------
Total= 55

5th Wing Patrol Ship- 22
Gul Dukat- 5
Captured Intelligence-3
Boheeka- 2
Tetryon Emissions- 3
-------------
Total= 35

Hideki Class Attack Fighters- 20

Fleet Total: 55+35+20= 110


First Round: ༼ つ◕_◕༽つ MOLLY ༼ つ◕_◕༽つ vs Klingons:
The first round I played against a klingon build. He was running a K'vort, I.K.S. Negh'Var, and a Vorcha. He was running the Flagship upgrade that gives one of your ships an extra move, thus he was on deep space 9 turn one. I had two options when I saw him set up to fly toward Deep Space 9, I could either stay out of range 3 and try to bait him to fight me, or fly at Deep Space 9 and blow it up before it had an effect in the game. I chose the later as the poor maneuverability of my Battleship didn't give me confidence for being able to stay out of the range of Deep Space 9 the entire time. I managed to blow up the space station on turn two diminishing its effect on the game, however because I had to devote two attacks on turn two, that was two less attacks I had to throw at him, putting me behind significantly. After approaching the station we both came about with our fleets and engaged each other. We both lost two ships, I was left with my Battleship and he was left with his Vorcha. Unfortunately he was behind me so that was instant death for my poor little Battleship, he won 100 to 55 ( I will elaborate on my feelings toward the Battleship after the 3 reports).

Second Round: ༼ つ◕_◕༽つ MOLLY ༼ つ◕_◕༽つ vs Romulans:
This time I played against a fairly standard Romulan build for this player, it used a Science Vessel, the Valdore, and a Kazara with the Romulan Flagship upgrade on the Kazara. He as well had plans to take Deep Space 9, but didn't have the double move like the klingon fleet. As well, he was only sending the science vessel toward the space station, opting to joust with his other two ships. I as well set up opposite him as I liked a 3v2 advantage. He took the station but if I remember correctly I was able to always stay outside of 3. He was smart in the joust, we only had one turn of firing at each other and it was at range 1. I forced him to use his Interphase Generator, but that was about it in terms of significance. I was starting to sweat as we went past each other now. He opted to 3 move about face with is Valdore and 3 hard right move with is Kazara (I noticed afterward that he couldn't actually about face with the Kazara and I believe this is what won me the game.). I then about faced with both my 5th wing and Hideki fighters, opting to slow turn at 3/4 my Battleship. The about face of my two ships was too much fire for just the valdore to bear. After that, the 5th wing and Hideki ships moved forward to take out the Kazara who was just now turning around, and the Battleship just sat there floating in space. He conceded after the Kazara was dead, 100 to 0.

Third Round: ༼ つ◕_◕༽つ MOLLY ༼ つ◕_◕༽つ vs Dominion:
The third round was vs my best friend. He was playing a build we had put together for him before the tournament. It used a 4th Division and a 5th Wing, with Khan on the 5th Wing loaded down with Barrage of Fire and Conditional Surrender. We set up in joust style. He plays smart, gets within 2 and uses the barrage to take out Dukat on the 5th Wing Patrol Ship. I however, was able to do a number on his battleship with the Hideki fighters and my own. we then split off, my battleship goes for the station and the hideki fighters about face to finish off the battleship. I took Deep Space 9 with my Battleship crew and then chased down his 5th wing using my Hideki fighters and the battleship as a zoning force. He eventually just picked up as we were both tired of playing (it was late at this point) and I won 120 to 35.

Despite a 2 Win 1 Loss, I got second place, with the Klingon player who I played in the first round going 3 Wins 0 Losses. I did however win the fellowship so that was nice. More importantly to me though, I learned a lot about these 3 ships which I don't play with all that often.

First, I will start with the 5th Wing Patrol Ship. It was a nice little ship, it threw out 4 dice on occasion and did decent damage, however, if I was fighting someone with cloak it was practically useless and I found that more often than not, people targeted it first simply because it is just so easy to take out. If I was to use this ship again, it would have to be with a Flagship upgrade giving it some beefy stats and more free actions as you need your regular action for its special some times.

Second, the 4th Division Battleship. I feel like Wizkids didn't test play this or something, that or they were like "hey lets make a sweet looking ship, with cool upgrades, and good stats, but, plot twist, we are going to troll the shit out of players by making it completely shit at moving and no rear firing arc. Genius!" Okay but seriously, this ship is bad. It had some decent second turn shots, but everyone I played against was very aware of its lack of maneuverability and simply flew past it, then came about and ignored it. I really feel like taking my 3 Battleships, mailing them back to Wizkids, and asking for 3 of a different ship it is that bad. I feel like Wizkids ultimately failed with this ship, HOWEVER, I think it could have been remedied with one simple fix, a rear firing arc. This would take the Battleship from garbage to a great, playable ship. It would make sense too. It has multiple weapons slots, bigger ships usually had multiple weapons systems on the front and rear of their ships, plus, no other dominion ship has a rear firing arc yet, give us just one please! All said and done, I don't ever see myself running this ship again until they get their act together and errata the ship token to have a rear firing arc.

Third but not last, the Hideki Class Attack Fighters! These babies were worth their weight in gold that is for sure. Against a 2 ship build, they will just wreck you, hands down auto loss, just pick up as soon as you see them (minus a few exceptions, being a Koranak). You just simply cant throw out enough attacks with two ships to take care of the fighters and their other ships. Against a 3 ship build, they are still magnificent, especially when you are playing with ships that are limited on movement. Their resilience on the field, strong starting attack, easy maneuverability, and cheap cost for a ship make them an auto include in most any fleet I make.

Well, that about wraps it up from me. Again, I really hate the Battleship, I don't think I will be able to stress this enough. Let me know what you all think. Would also like to make a shout out to my OP event store, Little Shoppe of Games in Oklahoma City. Great place to play and so grateful for providing us a place to participate in the OP events. Would also like to thank my player base for not being dicks and generally nice people. It makes the game much more bearable when we can toss around ships we know people play a certain faction, and all being behind faction pure and throwing the cheese out the window kept me coming back to that store as opposed to others. If anyone is ever in the OKC area, I definitely encourage you to come check out Little Shoppe!
 
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Rob Tsuk
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Nice report!

I agree with you about the battleship. I don't think there's a pure faction way to make it a usable ship. I might experiment with it with Chekov or Cochran Deceleration, but otherwise, no.

I easily neutered the one Hideki fighter squad I saw in my OP5 using my two ship Shinzon build. A couple of Dorsal Weapon Array shots from long range and it's not throwing very many dice anymore.

Add to that the fact that they are a resource and force you to not take command tokens or flagship means that for myself I rate them somewhere between never use and maybe use.
 
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Stanton Lackey
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rtsuk wrote:
Nice report!

I agree with you about the battleship. I don't think there's a pure faction way to make it a usable ship. I might experiment with it with Chekov or Cochran Deceleration, but otherwise, no.

I easily neutered the one Hideki fighter squad I saw in my OP5 using my two ship Shinzon build. A couple of Dorsal Weapon Array shots from long range and it's not throwing very many dice anymore.

Add to that the fact that they are a resource and force you to not take command tokens or flagship means that for myself I rate them somewhere between never use and maybe use.


Yeah, I will admit I haven't looked much at mixed faction, but for our event in April we are having a free for all multiplayer, no holds, anything goes match for his extra Deep Space 9 he ordered. I will have to come up with some cross faction stuff for that if you have any suggestions.

The choice for the fighters vs the Flagships is a tough one. I think I got lucky in the fact that no one in my meta was teching against them nor did they expect anyone to run them, so I got somewhat lucky. I also think they make a difference whether your event is faction pure or not, as you said, adding a dorsal weapons array or a forward weapons grid to any ship would really put the hurt on the fighters. Aside from my friend this one night, I am the only person who has run Dominion for any of he OP 1-6 events.

I am also interested in the combination of the Kraxon and the Hideki fighters. I will have some play testing to do that is for sure, just never enough time in the week!
 
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Hero Guy
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Great write up. The Hidekis are definitely amazing. I'm really glad they are resources so we won't see Flagship Fighter Squads flying around the board. For the most part, I think you've got the same impression of the ships as I do.

The 5th Wing Patrol ship is a support ship. It is there to take pot shots and soak up attacks for whatever your main ship is. If they attack this, I always consider it a good thing. If you want them to be effective against cloak, you need to tailor the rest of your fleet to be able to deal 3-4 damage to cloaked ships in a single pass. That way, their hulls are severely weaken and when they decide to remain decloak, you come in with the Patrol ships and their phased Phased Polaron Beams to finish them off. I've done this to really good effect. Also, the PPB's are great against Fed ships as well.

The Battleship... Yeah I can't seem to make a fleet I am satisfied with using one of these. But when I do, their job is to engage at range 3, then again at range 1 and whether or not they survive past that is inconsequential to my plans (I will be planning for them not surviving). All I would want from them is to deal as much damage to the opposing fleet as they can so the rest of my fleet can clean up. As such, I would put the bare minimum in captain/upgrades on it to make it effective, and then devote the remainder of my points to make the back-up better.

Dorsal Weapons Array is the consolation prize of upgrades to me. Its a 3 die attack that consumes actions after the first use. Would you typically fly a ship if its weapon needed to be refreshed after each use? Nope. So why is a 3pt upgrade which does just that worthwhile? I'd rather have used Tetryon Emissions or something to help ensure that it survives the first barrage so it can attack a second time.
 
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Dave Benhart
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I haven't flown a battleship myself yet, but I think the key to them is the Thatch Weave once people get behind it. Or, use the other ship(s) in the fleet are there to protect the rear of the battleship. So don't line up in a straight line, but staggered and have the battleship move faster the first couple of turns. This 1) keeps the other, smaller ships (5th Wing or Fighters or both) alive and 2) once the enemy does the Come About they should be in front of the support ships facing the wrong direction. Yes, this means the support ships don't participate in the initial salvo.

Again, this is all theory for me.
 
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Stanton Lackey
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Hero_guy wrote:

Dorsal Weapons Array is the consolation prize of upgrades to me. Its a 3 die attack that consumes actions after the first use. Would you typically fly a ship if its weapon needed to be refreshed after each use? Nope. So why is a 3pt upgrade which does just that worthwhile? I'd rather have used Tetryon Emissions or something to help ensure that it survives the first barrage so it can attack a second time.


Ah yes I forgot to mention this card! I used it twice out of my 3 games. One time it didn't hit anything as he was cloaked, the second time it got one hit shields. Overall, I was very underwhelmed by it, and hindsight 20/20, I probably would have ran something else. I wonder what the feasibility of errataing the template of the Battleship to have a rear firing arc would be.
 
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Stanton Lackey
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davedujour wrote:
I haven't flown a battleship myself yet, but I think the key to them is the Thatch Weave once people get behind it. Or, use the other ship(s) in the fleet are there to protect the rear of the battleship. So don't line up in a straight line, but staggered and have the battleship move faster the first couple of turns. This 1) keeps the other, smaller ships (5th Wing or Fighters or both) alive and 2) once the enemy does the Come About they should be in front of the support ships facing the wrong direction. Yes, this means the support ships don't participate in the initial salvo.

Again, this is all theory for me.


It really is all about your other ships. I used the weaving set up in all my games, and while it is nice, it still doesn't help the Battleship once they are behind you. But, you are right, the key to winning with the build is the other two ships you are running. Being able to about face with them and put down some heavy fire is key. If there is one thing the Battleship will do for you, is it will provide a zone on either one of your flanks which the opponent will dare not go after the initial engagement.

One thing I would like to try is this or a similar build on a completely open map. I feel like it could do better if it wasn't hindered by a third of the map being off limits.
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Dave Benhart
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Yeah, even just a planet can hinder the battleship a lot. I wonder how it does with only DS9, that can be destroyed and removed, on the board. That's a pretty open map. Or OP5 with all of those killable OWPs.
 
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Jon NyD

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I can't be the only person that thought to cloak it for increased maneuverability (in faction even!)... 1 and 2 movement sensor echoes are quite awesome!

To the OP: Nice report!
 
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Rob Tsuk
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jonnyd76 wrote:
I can't be the only person that thought to cloak it for increased maneuverability (in faction even!)... 1 and 2 movement sensor echoes are quite awesome!


Since the problem is that you want to get the 90 front arc with its punishing primary attack facing at least 145 degrees away from where it is after the first pass, I don't think sensor echo helps. I also think disabling all those shields would be a sadness for me.
 
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Rob Tsuk
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Hero_guy wrote:

Dorsal Weapons Array is the consolation prize of upgrades to me. Its a 3 die attack that consumes actions after the first use. Would you typically fly a ship if its weapon needed to be refreshed after each use? Nope. So why is a 3pt upgrade which does just that worthwhile?.


Because it fires 360 degrees and doesn't suffer the defensive penalty at range 3. It's excellent for the turn after the first pass.

It doesn't make sense as an upgrade for a ship where you're paying so much for a huge primary weapon value, but boy is it nice on a IRW Khazara or IRW Valdore, whose various buffs apply to it and who suffer from limit firing arcs.
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Kevin Smith
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I typically play with faction pure builds, but for fun a couple of weeks ago I used the battleship with Picard, Scott, Chekov, and a dorsal weapons array. You could also sub in Dukat for Picard.
I liked it... a lot.
I also always use the Enterprise D in my Fed builds, and lately have been having a lot of fun with the Keldons and Galor, so I'm used to flying bath tubs.

Kevin
 
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Stanton Lackey
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rtsuk wrote:
Hero_guy wrote:

Dorsal Weapons Array is the consolation prize of upgrades to me. Its a 3 die attack that consumes actions after the first use. Would you typically fly a ship if its weapon needed to be refreshed after each use? Nope. So why is a 3pt upgrade which does just that worthwhile?.


Because it fires 360 degrees and doesn't suffer the defensive penalty at range 3. It's excellent for the turn after the first pass.

It doesn't make sense as an upgrade for a ship where you're paying so much for a huge primary weapon value, but boy is it nice on a IRW Khazara or IRW Valdore, whose various buffs apply to it and who suffer from limit firing arcs.


I have found that it also depends on who you play against. If you are up against a fleet that cloaks every turn, then the effect of the Dorsal Weapons Array is negligible. On the other hand, if they are rolling few defensive dice, it can really add up. Also, if you combine it with other dice adders it works wonders (Donatra, Indi Klingon Flagship, etc). Basically, the weapon isn't useless (like some other weapons), just situational and kinda meta dependent.

As to the person who wanted to use a cloaking device on the Battleship, that would cost an additional 9 points, I have a hard time believing that would be worth it, especially given that you have to lower your shields. If your looking for additional defense dice, I think Tetryon Emissions would be better.
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charles skrobis
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Interesting battle report, lots of things are based on judgement calls.

As for the battleship........I don't see the problem with it.

This might sound crazy, but flying a battleship isn't at all like flying a keldon, which isn't at all like the 5th wing patrol ship. So I know a lot of people tend to like to line up their ships closer to the middle of the play area these days, and maneuvering whenever they need to. So while lining up the Breen or the 5th wing patrol ship can work fine, it seems like lining up the keldons on the side of the board, and doing long banks keeps front arcs really well. (Actually went a whole event where no one got out of arc from the keldon.) So the big way I currently get the most out of my battleship, is by lining it up on the board edge, and getting it just into range 3, and then slow banks to keep the arcs centered, and if they really want to get behind me after that, there's the board edge for them right there. So I've manage to level the arcs really consistently, and even managed a few times where I couldn't get arc and just went long banks out of range, and so on. (I've seen a relatively new player make the battleship their big ship and trash fleets, slaughter so many fleets that weren't swarms.)

So I don't see ships as lacking maneuverability, as much as I see them being more difficult to maneuver. There's probably a few tricks to making it really work, and when it does, the battleship is devastating.

Lastly we get to the dorsal weapons array. I'd put it with a flagship or dukat, because I can battle stations with Boheeka and/or anti-proton scan, which makes the battleship crazy in any direction, and that much worse when they're in the forward arc. I've seen some crazy dorsal weapons arrays, especially with the dice stacking you can do. (Tribbles, antiproton scan, Strike force, and then dukat battle stations with boheeka for 6 die attack in any direction, or 10 in the forward arc, because 1 shot a klingon every round.) So the real question is more based on how you can plan things out.

Oh well, feels like I'm ranting.
Victory is life.
 
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charles_skrobis wrote:
Interesting battle report, lots of things are based on judgement calls.

As for the battleship........I don't see the problem with it.

This might sound crazy, but flying a battleship isn't at all like flying a keldon, which isn't at all like the 5th wing patrol ship. So I know a lot of people tend to like to line up their ships closer to the middle of the play area these days, and maneuvering whenever they need to. So while lining up the Breen or the 5th wing patrol ship can work fine, it seems like lining up the keldons on the side of the board, and doing long banks keeps front arcs really well. (Actually went a whole event where no one got out of arc from the keldon.) So the big way I currently get the most out of my battleship, is by lining it up on the board edge, and getting it just into range 3, and then slow banks to keep the arcs centered, and if they really want to get behind me after that, there's the board edge for them right there. So I've manage to level the arcs really consistently, and even managed a few times where I couldn't get arc and just went long banks out of range, and so on. (I've seen a relatively new player make the battleship their big ship and trash fleets, slaughter so many fleets that weren't swarms.)

So I don't see ships as lacking maneuverability, as much as I see them being more difficult to maneuver. There's probably a few tricks to making it really work, and when it does, the battleship is devastating.

Lastly we get to the dorsal weapons array. I'd put it with a flagship or dukat, because I can battle stations with Boheeka and/or anti-proton scan, which makes the battleship crazy in any direction, and that much worse when they're in the forward arc. I've seen some crazy dorsal weapons arrays, especially with the dice stacking you can do. (Tribbles, antiproton scan, Strike force, and then dukat battle stations with boheeka for 6 die attack in any direction, or 10 in the forward arc, because 1 shot a klingon every round.) So the real question is more based on how you can plan things out.

Oh well, feels like I'm ranting.
Victory is life.


no, this makes perfect sense man. Limit the 'not in my front arc' portion of the map by 1/3 and things will get much easier to deal with. I'll need to try this out. I'm still not sure that opponents couldn't just avoid you until you bank far enough away from the edge that they can now fly circles around you, though. And while Cloaked Mines don't do much, that 3 dice of potential damage add up fast if you are staggering the movement of the Battleship with one movements.

Also, my views on Dorsal Weapons Array are skewed by my own OCD (self-diagnosed) tendencies to think only faction pure. There are very few ways to get an extra attack die for the Dominion. Anti-proton scan is the most obvious choice, but it does nothing for most of the game against a Federation ship. I only recently obtained tribbles because I have not purchased any Klingon expansion packs so they don't always come to mind. And I prefer 3 ship builds so I don't really think of the benefits of Strike Force too often.
 
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Great report, I cannot begrudge you for using something that would give you a disadvantage if you didn't

Fighters definitely do seem to be worth their weight but I'm interested if you think they're a better value than the Flagship resource?

And yes, the Battleship definitely needs Cochranes or Alpha Strike to truly be effective.
 
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ColCarp wrote:
Great report, I cannot begrudge you for using something that would give you a disadvantage if you didn't

Fighters definitely do seem to be worth their weight but I'm interested if you think they're a better value than the Flagship resource?

And yes, the Battleship definitely needs Cochranes or Alpha Strike to truly be effective.


Hey thanks for reading! If it makes any consolation I don't use them in fun games!

Have you all seen the resource spoiler for the OP kit for April? it is a 180 about face for 5 points. I feel that it might make the battleship somewhat playable. I don't know the specifics, and it might count as a red maneuver, but still could be powerful!

@Charles Skrobis. I might have to try that with my battleship next time, although I feel they will just ignore it by staying out of its firing arc, killing my other ships, then just get behind it once I start to bank out.

In response to your Dorsal Weapons point, that list looks like a totally different build, but yes it would become more effective if I used the Strike Force AO and the dice buffing resource. As it stands right now in a fleet like this, I don't think the Dorsal Weapons Array is quite worth it.
 
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Dave Benhart
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maverick2909 wrote:

Have you all seen the resource spoiler for the OP kit for April? it is a 180 about face for 5 points. I feel that it might make the battleship somewhat playable. I don't know the specifics, and it might count as a red maneuver, but still could be powerful!


This was actually leaked a couple of months ago. I can't find the thread with it though. If the ship can do any red maneuver (or a white come about for those small ships) it can use that Resource. But, IIRC, it gets tied to a specific ship and is discarded to use. While it's a great maneuver, being able to only use it a single time in the entire game means it won't get used very much in competitive play. Command Tokens, Flagships, and Fighters are all much better Resources.
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charles skrobis
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Hero_guy wrote:


no, this makes perfect sense man. Limit the 'not in my front arc' portion of the map by 1/3 and things will get much easier to deal with. I'll need to try this out. I'm still not sure that opponents couldn't just avoid you until you bank far enough away from the edge that they can now fly circles around you, though. And while Cloaked Mines don't do much, that 3 dice of potential damage add up fast if you are staggering the movement of the Battleship with one movements.

Also, my views on Dorsal Weapons Array are skewed by my own OCD (self-diagnosed) tendencies to think only faction pure. There are very few ways to get an extra attack die for the Dominion. Anti-proton scan is the most obvious choice, but it does nothing for most of the game against a Federation ship. I only recently obtained tribbles because I have not purchased any Klingon expansion packs so they don't always come to mind. And I prefer 3 ship builds so I don't really think of the benefits of Strike Force too often.


To be honest, I prefer 3 ship Dominion too. Most of my Dominion builds are based on each ship filling some sort of niche, and everything else working together.

So when I look at the 5th wing partol ships, they're great against non-cloaked targets, especially with phased polaron beams, but if you can attack fix with people like Gul Danar and a battle stations, they can hurt cloaked ships to some extent, while still being relatively cheap.

For the breen ships, they're really more of a support ship vs cloaked, and hatred vs non-cloaking. The energy dissipator can be ramped up to hit cloaking, (Love invaluable advice on thot pran.) but they ultimately remove shields from non-cloaked ships much easier then a cloak token. I also take preference to the Gor portas, just because of the ease of repeating torpedoes so that it can put out some damage too.

Kraxon, shielding hits. The most I've seen this ship do is take all the early hits so that they don't shield another ship and end up with both alive.I know I've seen it blow past after the opening attacks, but it takes a bit to turn around from there.

The Keldons and the battleship are the heavy hitter for what I do. typically an upgrade to fix damage, and then everything else is based on the fleet I'm flying. Often times I like to have a lower skill captain on it with an antiproton scan. The mentality with this is that if they're cloaking, I hurt them for trying that, if they don't cloak, then my other ships have a chance to do enough damage to break through their shields first, and then I get the antiproton scan anyways. (Worse if the gor portas energy dissipator hit earlier in the round.)

So a lot of what makes the dominion crazy is getting the pieces that normally don't interact to line everything up just right. (Wiped out a Klingon 2 ship fleet once by having Gul Dukat hit on with an energy dissipator using Boheeka, and then the 5th wing and the Keldon with an antiproton scan ended it in that round, leaving him with 1 ship to fire back that round, because worf is really low skill.)

But then again, a lot of it is sculpting towards what you feel you'll go up against in each match, and that's what really adds challenge to the Dominion and why there isn't a singular perfect way to run them each time.
 
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davedujour wrote:
maverick2909 wrote:

Have you all seen the resource spoiler for the OP kit for April? it is a 180 about face for 5 points. I feel that it might make the battleship somewhat playable. I don't know the specifics, and it might count as a red maneuver, but still could be powerful!


This was actually leaked a couple of months ago. I can't find the thread with it though. If the ship can do any red maneuver (or a white come about for those small ships) it can use that Resource. But, IIRC, it gets tied to a specific ship and is discarded to use. While it's a great maneuver, being able to only use it a single time in the entire game means it won't get used very much in competitive play. Command Tokens, Flagships, and Fighters are all much better Resources.


Ah thanks for the info. Yeah, only usable on a single ship, once, as a red maneuver for 5 points and your Resource slot? No. Thank. You.
 
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