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Subject: Player Elimination - How do you deal with it? rss

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In any game that has the potential to last for eight hours or more, player elimination is a problem. A player, via a confluence of actions outside of his or her control, could even be eliminated in the first turn of the game. The issue isn't simply the fact that some people lose, but that one or more players can no longer participate in the gaming that they anticipated would last for the afternoon.

Additionally, it isn't as if player elimination can be removed via gentleman's agreement as some secret objectives (Merciless, et al) explicitly encourage player elimination.

So how does your group handle player elimination? Do you deal with it via agreement, a rule change, or do you allow player elimination without reservation?
 
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Andrew B
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In my experience it does not happen often, and I attack people mercilessly.

A turn 1 takeout is possible but highly unlikely I would say.
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Roberto Armentia
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I can't figure out how a player can be eliminated in the first game turn.
 
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Andrew B
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robertcop2 wrote:
I can't figure out how a player can be eliminated in the first game turn.


Wormholes, flanking speed, warfare, there are ways. Just not likely, and it's a pretty big gamble I would said.
 
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Rich Shipley
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If I'm eliminated in a game, I'll go do something else.
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Thomas Robb
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Player Elimination House Rule:

If a player(s) is eliminated from the game, they come back as a Rebel faction(s). They start over with their race's Command Counters, original techs, starting units, etc.

They then draw one race's name (currently in the game) from a hat.

Then, secretly, they attempt covertly to helping the race they drew from the hat win the game. They cannot tell anyone in the game who they are helping, not even the race they are now supporting.

If the race they drew (and helped secretly) wins the game, then the Rebel faction comes in 2nd place as the new emperor's 1st lieutenant.

Not ideal, but allows eliminated players to remain in the game and at least get a minor reward by finishing ahead of everyone else except the top scorer.

cool
 
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Tom Reuhl
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I had a newbie attack me with his starting Warsun; I spent the rest of the game eliminating him. I would say it took me till the 5th-6th hour.

To answer your question better though: He slept on the couch.
 
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Adam Wehn
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If I get eliminated in a game I'd be fascinated to watch and see what else happens. I could also become a "banker" of sorts handing out TG's and other tokens such as the GF tokens and Fighter tokens.
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Jason Schmidt
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With your variant how do they actually come back though? I mean if they're completely wiped out - how do they reappear?
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Roberto Armentia
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andrewbwm wrote:
robertcop2 wrote:
I can't figure out how a player can be eliminated in the first game turn.


Wormholes, flanking speed, warfare, there are ways. Just not likely, and it's a pretty big gamble I would said.


Any specific example scenario? For instance, with a first player turn it is imposible to go from one home system to another home system using adjacent wormholes, isn't it? If the attacker has Warfare, he may then arrive to the enemy's home system in 2 turns, but for sure the defender will have already spread to another system, thus having units in more tan 1 system, or filled his home system with a whole bunch of units in a number farther superior than the attacker. I don't see how he can be then eliminated in the first game turn.
 
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Eric Matthews
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Due to the games length, our house rule is that any player who eliminates another player is immediately targeted by the other players. Whoever wipes out the overzealous eliminator, wins.

It's never actually come up in a game though, it's a deterrent, though I don't think we actually need it.
 
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Andrew B
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robertcop2 wrote:
andrewbwm wrote:
robertcop2 wrote:
I can't figure out how a player can be eliminated in the first game turn.


Wormholes, flanking speed, warfare, there are ways. Just not likely, and it's a pretty big gamble I would said.


Any specific example scenario? For instance, with a first player turn it is imposible to go from one home system to another home system using adjacent wormholes, isn't it? If the attacker has Warfare, he may then arrive to the enemy's home system in 2 turns, but for sure the defender will have already spread to another system, thus having units in more tan 1 system, or filled his home system with a whole bunch of units in a number farther superior than the attacker. I don't see how he can be then eliminated in the first game turn.


If both players have the same wormhole adjacent to their homesystems you would need to move 3 systems away. Base movement is 1 for carriers, warfare played by another player let's you move ships and that increases it to 2, flanking speed makes in 3. Again, I'm not saying it's likely or worth it, just possible.
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Roberto Armentia
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andrewbwm wrote:
robertcop2 wrote:
andrewbwm wrote:
robertcop2 wrote:
I can't figure out how a player can be eliminated in the first game turn.


Wormholes, flanking speed, warfare, there are ways. Just not likely, and it's a pretty big gamble I would said.


Any specific example scenario? For instance, with a first player turn it is imposible to go from one home system to another home system using adjacent wormholes, isn't it? If the attacker has Warfare, he may then arrive to the enemy's home system in 2 turns, but for sure the defender will have already spread to another system, thus having units in more tan 1 system, or filled his home system with a whole bunch of units in a number farther superior than the attacker. I don't see how he can be then eliminated in the first game turn.


If both players have the same wormhole adjacent to their homesystem you would need to move 3 systems away. Base movement is 1 for carriers, warfare increases that to 2, flanking speed makes in 3. Again, I'm not saying it's likely or worth it, just possible.


Yes I understand what you say. And what I'm saying is that it is still impossible to eliminate another player in 1 game round even using the elements you cited. As I said before, using Warfare will have you the opportunity to get to the enemy home system in the third player turn (not second as I said). This means that the attacked player will have already spread to another systems or built a lot of units in his home system in his first turn. In the first case the elimination is totally impossible and in the second case the attack with a base fleet vs an empowered fleet is totally ridiculous.
 
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Jon Horne
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Player elimination is rare in the extreme with people who are playing to win. It takes a real effort to do so, and that effort won't probably be scoring you VP. Also, Merciless doesn't call for player elimination, just taking over a home system. I've seen players come back from losing their home system and win the game.

The first turn elimination is so unlikely that you may as well consider it impossible. Like andrewbwm said, you need perfect wormholes, have XRD or stasis capsules, draw a flank speed card (or Warfare II), and attack your opponent before he moves out (or have Warfare I or an unexpected action card). And then you have to win all of the ensuing battles. Go play the lottery instead; your odds are better.
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Andrew B
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robertcop2 wrote:
Yes I understand what you say. And what I'm saying is that it is still impossible to eliminate another player in 1 game round even using the elements you cited. As I said before, using Warfare will have you the opportunity to get to the enemy home system in the third player turn (not second as I said). This means that the attacked player will have already spread to another systems or built a lot of units in his home system in his first turn. In the first case the elimination is totally impossible and in the second case the attack with a base fleet vs an empowered fleet is totally ridiculous.


I think the original poster meant the first round anyway. The idea I think is that you could be taken out before you even get a turn. Again, I really don't think it matters, it is a freak occurence at best. Even in 2-3 rounds it is hard to do and pretty unlikely and not really worth it. You can do it in one round, I think you need both diplomacy and warfare before, not really sure, not worth doing the math.

Twilight Imperium does not have a player elimination problem.
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Justin Rio
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andrewbwm wrote:
Twilight Imperium does not have a player elimination problem.
 
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I think the initial impetus of the topic has gotten away from us, so I'll take this opportunity to refocus the discussion.

How do you handle player elimination in your games? Do you use a house rule, avoid the situation by mutual agreement, or do you simply allow for player elimination without reservation?

***


As a specific example from my experience, I recently took part in a six-player game in which a player was eliminated. In either game round two or three, the player next to me made a poorly executed attack against someone holding Mecatol Rex, leaving his region of space open to counter attack by his other neighbor. When the counter attacks came, his planets were all taken over except for one with his last remaining space dock within my reach.

I ordinarily wouldn't have bothered to take this last system, but I had the secret objective "Merciless," which would award me two victory points for destroying someone's last remaining space dock. That was enough motivation for me to seal the deal and eliminate my neighbor from the game.

At that point, the eliminated player went home.
 
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Dustin Shunta
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Ganymede425 wrote:
I think the initial impetus of the topic has gotten away from us, so I'll take this opportunity to refocus the discussion.

How do you handle player elimination in your games? Do you use a house rule, avoid the situation by mutual agreement, or do you simply allow for player elimination without reservation?

***


As a specific example from my experience, I recently took part in a six-player game in which a player was eliminated. In either game round two or three, the player next to me made a poorly executed attack against someone holding Mecatol Rex, leaving his region of space open to counter attack by his other neighbor. When the counter attacks came, his planets were all taken over except for one with his last remaining space dock within my reach.

I ordinarily wouldn't have bothered to take this last system, but I had the secret objective "Merciless," which would award me two victory points for destroying someone's last remaining space dock. That was enough motivation for me to seal the deal and eliminate my neighbor from the game.

At that point, the eliminated player went home.


I think this is fine. I wish it didn't feel bad though and I hope the eliminated player handled it gracefully.

I think the situation you described is one that is really easy to justify. The one thats not as simple to justify is when you attack that last remaining stuff when it doesn't get you a VP, but only gets maybe a 3 resource or 3 inf planet. Is it okay then? I would still say that it is, because it is advancing your strategic plan.

I have had the situation arise a few times early in round one or two where I could attack a neighbor and really hurt them. I would typically not gain any VP from doing this, but I might drastically increase the amount of resources/influence (I might not be increasing it at that moment, but I would be increasing my sphere of influence and could backfill colonization of other planets near me.)

I really struggle with this type of situation because it can really create a massive enemy who know longer wants to win the game, but rather just hurt you, which is an attitude I can't stand. At the same time, I feel like a lot of the races are powerful early and if you don't make use of that power (or at least threaten to get a benefit), you are probably giving up a strategic advantage.
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Kai Mölleken
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Ganymede425 wrote:
In either game round two or three, the player next to me made a poorly executed attack against someone holding Mecatol Rex, leaving his region of space open to counter attack by his other neighbor.


I think the answer to your question is right in your example:

If you want to stay in the game, don't play stupidly!

As many have already pointed out, player elimination usually isn't a problem. That's because most people who play Twilight Imperium have played it before or have at least played similiarly long & complex games.

It's not easy to eliminate a player. It's only as easy as in your example when someone makes some obviously bad moves. In this case... well I'd say he has most likely learned his lesson or he will stay away from the game in the future. In any case: Problem solved
 
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Kaermo wrote:
Ganymede425 wrote:
In either game round two or three, the player next to me made a poorly executed attack against someone holding Mecatol Rex, leaving his region of space open to counter attack by his other neighbor.


I think the answer to your question is right in your example:

If you want to stay in the game, don't play stupidly!


I don't think it is as simple as this. Twilight Imperium is no different from any other game in the sense that someone will always end up stuck in worst place. Whether through tactical blunders, shrewd opponents, or plain dumb luck, people will lose the game. I have no qualms with someone losing. (As an aside, the player in the example above rolled exceptionally poorly; that's what I meant by "poorly executed.")

What makes Twilight Imperium different from most board games is its incredibly long play time. Games often last around eight hours, and groups of players will often plan entire evenings around the game with scheduled breaks for meals and such.

When a player is eliminated in hour three of an eight-hour game, it puts a crimp in the evening's plans. Suddenly, you have a guest who no longer has anything to do. He or she certainly can't start a new game as there are no other players available. Packing up and going home is a problem because a game of Twilight Imperium is an implicit promise of an evening of gaming excitement.

Personally, I think that's a problem. I love this game, and even being curb stomped into worst place can still be a lot of fun. What isn't as fun is your 6th player retiring to the living room for the rest of the evening to watch Lou Dobbs.
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Jon Horne
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Seriously, it almost never happens. You are asking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Make up a house rule if you want just to cover every eventuality and set your guests' minds at ease, but you shouldn't need to use it more than once every 50 games or so. Elimination just doesn't happen regularly unless you are playing with douche bags.
 
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Jimb0v wrote:
Ganymede425 wrote:
I think the initial impetus of the topic has gotten away from us, so I'll take this opportunity to refocus the discussion.

How do you handle player elimination in your games? Do you use a house rule, avoid the situation by mutual agreement, or do you simply allow for player elimination without reservation?

***


As a specific example from my experience, I recently took part in a six-player game in which a player was eliminated. In either game round two or three, the player next to me made a poorly executed attack against someone holding Mecatol Rex, leaving his region of space open to counter attack by his other neighbor. When the counter attacks came, his planets were all taken over except for one with his last remaining space dock within my reach.

I ordinarily wouldn't have bothered to take this last system, but I had the secret objective "Merciless," which would award me two victory points for destroying someone's last remaining space dock. That was enough motivation for me to seal the deal and eliminate my neighbor from the game.

At that point, the eliminated player went home.


I think this is fine. I wish it didn't feel bad though and I hope the eliminated player handled it gracefully.

I think the situation you described is one that is really easy to justify. The one thats not as simple to justify is when you attack that last remaining stuff when it doesn't get you a VP, but only gets maybe a 3 resource or 3 inf planet. Is it okay then? I would still say that it is, because it is advancing your strategic plan.

I have had the situation arise a few times early in round one or two where I could attack a neighbor and really hurt them. I would typically not gain any VP from doing this, but I might drastically increase the amount of resources/influence (I might not be increasing it at that moment, but I would be increasing my sphere of influence and could backfill colonization of other planets near me.)

I really struggle with this type of situation because it can really create a massive enemy who know longer wants to win the game, but rather just hurt you, which is an attitude I can't stand. At the same time, I feel like a lot of the races are powerful early and if you don't make use of that power (or at least threaten to get a benefit), you are probably giving up a strategic advantage.


I believe the sequence of events you're detailing is well-covered by the old proverb, "If you shoot at me, you'd better kill me"devil.

In the situation you describe, were I the victim, it would not be that I would no longer want to win; it would rather be that, if sufficiently crippled, I would no longer be able to win!

If the above were truly the case, then of course I would devote myself to causing you as much damage as possible! It would make absolutely no sense for me to do otherwise. That way you don't ultimately profit from having ended my chances of winning and it's a lesson for the future the next time you feel inclinced to try to cripple me.
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Jon Y.
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Solan has it right.

In fact, I could've sworn that something like that was in the FAQ...
 
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David Damerell
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Ganymede425 wrote:
How do you handle player elimination in your games? Do you use a house rule, avoid the situation by mutual agreement, or do you simply allow for player elimination without reservation?


It's pretty unlikely, but if it happens, it happens. If I turn up for an evening playing a game where elimination is a possibility, I'll bring a book just in case.
 
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