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Subject: Another question about the Brigand's shadow mechanic, how does the Shadow's Reach+Shadow's Touch Combo Work? rss

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Dan Cordz
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How is the Shadow's Reach + Shadow's Touch combo as described on page 29 supposed to work? I understand how Shadow's Reach can be played after Shadowslip for an attack, but doesn't this attack break shadows if it is successful? Then, because the successful Shadow's Reach attack removed the Brigand out of the shadows, how is he supposed to play Shadow's Touch which requires shadows?
 
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Jeremy Steward
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When a card has (Optional: Card X) in this case (Optional: Shadow's Reach), what it essentially means is that you can "break the rules" by playing it after that card outside of when you normally would be able to.

In this case, you play Shadow's Reach, you may play Shadow's Touch afterward because it says (Optional: Shadow's Reach).
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John Middleton
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It's confusing because you play the optional card before the main card.

The optional keyword basically means that you can combo that card, on which the keyword is printed, after playing the listed optional card.



The combo still only counts as one total attack, so the Shadows is still broken. The benefit is the Massive damage which lets you hit for 5 base damage, letting you kill Lairs in one shot.



The key with this combo is that Reach alone doesn't require Shadows, but to combo Touch to it, you need Shadows, then it will drop away.

 
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Tony Pecorelli
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So does that mean the combo is played all at once?

As a follow up, does that mean any of the Brigand's combos get played all at once and count as a single attack?
 
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Remi Bureau
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hatchhermit wrote:
So does that mean the combo is played all at once?

As a follow up, does that mean any of the Brigand's combos get played all at once and count as a single attack?


I'd say the last time that was asked, the community was about 50/50 on that, hopefully we get an official ruling on this soon.
 
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Wallace MacBix
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RemiBureau wrote:
hatchhermit wrote:
So does that mean the combo is played all at once?

As a follow up, does that mean any of the Brigand's combos get played all at once and count as a single attack?


I'd say the last time that was asked, the community was about 50/50 on that, hopefully we get an official ruling on this soon.


Ugh I didn't even consider that it would count as one attack, but now I'm confused on the timing.

I assumed it was:



Play "Shadowslip" (as a reaction) -- Now in Shadows

Play "Shadow's Reach" (as a reaction)
-- teleport
-- roll dice pool (+2FD from shadows) to attack 1 target for 2 damage

Play "Shadow's Touch"
-- roll dice pool again (+2 FD from shadows?) to attack either the same target or a different one for 3 damage



My reasoning was that he could go into shadows without effecting anyone else, but if there was a "pause" between the two attacks his stealth would break. But now I'm not so sure.

Assuming that other heroes can take an action in the middle of a combo:
what happens if another hero activates a Darkness Cycle -- is the brigand in stealth or not? He needs it to play Shadow's Touch after the DC is done. Or can you use it as a tactical strategy:

In Shadow --> "Shadow's Reach" kills all nearby targets --> another hero starts the DC --> monsters move adjacent to the brigand --> after the DC the brigand can now use Shadow's Touch to kill the new enemy

----
Based that the above doesn't seem like the intent I'd assume that no other heroes can interrupt a combo (and if they do the combo can no longer be completed). But to me it does make sense that each attack is separate and you'd have to make a roll for each one (and they can be against different targets).
 
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Remi Bureau
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FALCN120 wrote:
[q="RemiBureau"][q="hatchhermit"]
I assumed it was:



Play "Shadowslip" (as a reaction) -- Now in Shadows

Play "Shadow's Reach" (as a reaction)
-- teleport
-- roll dice pool (+2FD from shadows) to attack 1 target for 2 damage

Play "Shadow's Touch"
-- roll dice pool again (+2 FD from shadows?) to attack either the same target or a different one for 3 damage


That's how I'll be playing that combo, with the shadows bonus on both attacks, at least until we hear something official.

I too hadn't even considered the two attacks could become only one with one roll for 4 damage.
 
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John Middleton
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The example in the grey text box talks about killing lairs with this combo.

One shot = 5 damage over that attack round, not 5 at once. You would still have one attack for 2 points and one attack for 3 points.

These would automatically hit though, no need to roll, if you only move cautiously before launching the combo (which is all you can move if Shadowslip is played first).

If you move normal then the lair is only TN 2 and still an easy kill.



 
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Remi Bureau
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DegenerateElite wrote:
The example in the grey text box talks about killing lairs with this combo.

One shot = 5 damage over that attack round, not 5 at once. You would still have one attack for 2 points and one attack for 3 points.

These would automatically hit though, no need to roll, if you only move cautiously before launching the combo (which is all you can move if Shadowslip is played first).

If you move normal then the lair is only TN 2 and still an easy kill.





Wouldn't that be, you hit automatically both attacks if you didn't move, and hit on 2+ if you moved cautiously?
If you make a normal move, you can only do Shadow's Reach, and not from Shadows since a normal move takes you out of Shadows.
 
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John Middleton
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That's right. Too many damn modifiers.

You couldn't move normal and do the combo at all, since Touch requires Shadows.


Cautious is the max move allowed to stay in Shadows. Can you voluntarily move faster and drop Shadows?

Can you voluntarily drop any ongoing effect from cards?
 
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Wallace MacBix
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DegenerateElite wrote:
That's right. Too many damn modifiers.

You couldn't move normal and do the combo at all, since Touch requires Shadows.


Cautious is the max move allowed to stay in Shadows. Can you voluntarily move faster and drop Shadows?

Can you voluntarily drop any ongoing effect from cards?


I believe you can voluntarily move faster to drop Shadows.

I don't think you can drop any ongoing effects unless you are in the Hero Deck Phase (after a Hero Cycle) unless it's consumed via an Apprentice spell . And based on the wording from pg 25, if you choose to remove an Ongoing Effect card then you also can reduce your threat from that now empty space.
 
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Nicolas Picouet
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You can full move or even aggressive move and still be in shadows.

The only thing that breaks shadows is a monster notice check, successful attack the brigand makes, or if you choose to remove the ongoing shadows card in hero deck phase.

I think what you meant is you can't play shadows touch with a full or aggressive move. So you can't full move, then drop the whole combo.
 
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Mike Miller

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Plumpman wrote:
You can full move or even aggressive move and still be in shadows.

The only thing that breaks shadows is a monster notice check, successful attack the brigand makes, or if you choose to remove the ongoing shadows card in hero deck phase.

I think what you meant is you can't play shadows touch with a full or aggressive move. So you can't full move, then drop the whole combo.


Not quite, buried somewhere in the manual is the caveat that makes cautious the highest amount of movement you can take while in shadows. Don't ask me where it is, but it is in there.
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Nicolas Picouet
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Interesting. I'm willing to follow most caveats on here, but that is pushing my limits, haha.

EDIT: Ok found it, but the text is STILL ambiguous. It reads:
"Cautious Movement
This represents a Hero moving more carefully. In certain cases, like the Brigand’s Shadows cards, it is the maximum movement type allowed."


It could just be referring to the 2 copies of shadow's touch that can't be used if you move more than cautiously, at least in my eyes.

This just seems like such a big rule to leave out, that it should be included in the Ongoing Shadows card text, even WITH all the other missing rules.
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Steve Hajducko
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pinkymadigan wrote:
Plumpman wrote:
You can full move or even aggressive move and still be in shadows.

The only thing that breaks shadows is a monster notice check, successful attack the brigand makes, or if you choose to remove the ongoing shadows card in hero deck phase.

I think what you meant is you can't play shadows touch with a full or aggressive move. So you can't full move, then drop the whole combo.


Not quite, buried somewhere in the manual is the caveat that makes cautious the highest amount of movement you can take while in shadows. Don't ask me where it is, but it is in there.


So yeah, it says this in the rulebook ( pg 38 ):

Cautious Movement
This represents a Hero moving more carefully. In certain cases, like the Brigand’s Shadows cards, it is the maximum movement type allowed.

Unfortunately, none of the Shadow cards say this. We played last night and allowed the Brigand to move normally and aggressively while in Shadows. Even the Hero Deck reference simply states only that *successful* attacks bring him out of the Shadows ( or if he is noticed ). Just another thing to add to the growing questions about the Brigand and his mechanics.

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Mike Miller

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Hmmm, don't the cards have 'NO' under normal and agg. movement? If so, while they are in your action spaces (while they are ongoing) you are committed to that movement type, I believe?
 
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Steve Hajducko
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No, the Shadow cards (Shadowslip and One with the Dark) list 'Yes' for all movement types.
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Michelle
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sjmh wrote:
pinkymadigan wrote:
Plumpman wrote:
You can full move or even aggressive move and still be in shadows.

The only thing that breaks shadows is a monster notice check, successful attack the brigand makes, or if you choose to remove the ongoing shadows card in hero deck phase.

I think what you meant is you can't play shadows touch with a full or aggressive move. So you can't full move, then drop the whole combo.


Not quite, buried somewhere in the manual is the caveat that makes cautious the highest amount of movement you can take while in shadows. Don't ask me where it is, but it is in there.


So yeah, it says this in the rulebook ( pg 38 ):

Cautious Movement
This represents a Hero moving more carefully. In certain cases, like the Brigand’s Shadows cards, it is the maximum movement type allowed.

Unfortunately, none of the Shadow cards say this. We played last night and allowed the Brigand to move normally and aggressively while in Shadows. Even the Hero Deck reference simply states only that *successful* attacks bring him out of the Shadows ( or if he is noticed ). Just another thing to add to the growing questions about the Brigand and his mechanics.



Still waiting on my game, but people on the forums have been treating the shadows=half movement rule as if it was a sure thing, so I assumed that the rule was written crystal clear. But yeah, wow, that one reference doesn't convince me that's what they were trying to say.
 
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Steve Hajducko
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breegull wrote:

Still waiting on my game, but people on the forums have been treating the shadows=half movement rule as if it was a sure thing, so I assumed that the rule was written crystal clear. But yeah, wow, that one reference doesn't convince me that's what they were trying to say.


Agreed - it's so offhanded that it's like one of them just thought of it as a 'Maybe we should do that' and accidentally left it in.

It's not mentioned anywhere in the Brigand section of the rulebook and on none of his cards, nor anywhere in the Hero Deck reference. You'd think it'd be an important thing.
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Mike Miller

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Hmm. I recall when I read the rule it wasn't anywhere that I thought it should be. Maybe I'm wrong, but I still think the rule is in there. I'll have to look tonight, though.
 
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Steve Hajducko
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pinkymadigan wrote:
Hmm. I recall when I read the rule it wasn't anywhere that I thought it should be. Maybe I'm wrong, but I still think the rule is in there. I'll have to look tonight, though.


I already posted where it was in the rulebook. And that was after a full PDF search for the word 'Shadow', 'Brigand' and 'Cautious'.
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Mike Miller

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sjmh wrote:
pinkymadigan wrote:
Hmm. I recall when I read the rule it wasn't anywhere that I thought it should be. Maybe I'm wrong, but I still think the rule is in there. I'll have to look tonight, though.


I already posted where it was in the rulebook. And that was after a full PDF search for the word 'Shadow', 'Brigand' and 'Cautious'.


I knew you posted where you saw what you thought was the wording, but I thought I remembered a more specific rule. I could easily be wrong, like most people I've read hundreds of posts on 3 different forums, several unofficial documents, and the rulebook several times, so I tend to forget where things were.

What I recall was that the rule wasn't in a section it should be in, but if you searched the PDF, that probably means that either I remember it incorrectly, or I remember seeing a semi-official or official answer on one of the three main forums I've been monitoring for Myth info, and just remembered that it wasn't in the book then.

Easy mistake to make.
 
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Jonathan Patterson
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It does have that feel of something left in the rule book from an earlier version...
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Mike Miller

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sjmh wrote:
No, the Shadow cards (Shadowslip and One with the Dark) list 'Yes' for all movement types.


This, to me, seems like the big oversight RE: shadows. A simple 'NO' on those movement types would have gone a long way, especially if the intent is to have cautious movement only.
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Nicolas Picouet
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The brigand is such a hassle I feel like I don't even want to include him in the play sessions anymore, almost like he is "broken" since no one REALLY knows his rules for key class elements.

Game still rocks!
 
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