Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
11 Posts

The Supreme Commander» Forums » Rules

Subject: DoW on Italy rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Pekka Hakoma
Finland
Riihimaki
flag msg tools
If France declares war on Italy on the 1st turn is UK also at war with Italy? Or does UK have to make their own DoW?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Danny Holte
United States
Fullerton
California
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

They are allied, so yes they would both be at war.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pekka Hakoma
Finland
Riihimaki
flag msg tools
Thank you for the answer, and thanks for a great game!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jussi Perttila
Finland
lahti
hame
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
But is UK considered to DoWed Italy too? ( France is actual payer and UK is just free rider )

Is it intentional, that France DoW against Italy is just trick to avoid UK DoW penalties against neutral countries under 16.1.5 and 17.14.2 ?

yeah , I am opponent of Pekka in game.



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Bernatz
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dan can confirm, but the answer should be "no". If the Democracies are the aggressors and declare war on Italy, then the shifts occur. Consider it that the UK is also declaring war, but the cost is associated with the cost paid for by France. I'll put this in the FAQ if Dan agrees that this is how it should read.

edit: would help if I double check the question/rulebook before answering..D'oh! Italy is not in the first list of countries affected by UK DOW... (but the answer would be the same -> if France DOW's Italy, the shifts should still be paid). See below.

-K
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jussi Perttila
Finland
lahti
hame
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
thx for your opinion/answer.
Personally I feel, that punishment should be according 16.1.5


and for following sentence

"In addition to the above, if the UK declares war on Italy before Italy is an Active Major Power (which would automatically place them at war with the UK), then shift the diplomatic mark- ers of all of the following nations (if Neutral) one step towards the Axis on the Diplomatic Track:

Bulgaria Finland Norway Romania Sweden
Hungary Spain

so all 7 countries get shift...

or does " addition" means...that below

Belgium Denmark Ireland Luxembourg Norway Portugal Sweden
Iraq / Iran Netherlands Spain
move towards axis

and then rest of 7 countries move again?


Anyway...any clarification to my dummy thinking is appreciated.



France DoW Italy...( Must the UK join the DoW? Can Uk be separately in peace?)

1. No..Democrats fights together and die together. If someone DoW...all democrats DoW.
2. Of course they can be separately. They are independent nations. Later on they pay/announce DoW whenever UK want. Or get Declared upon.

following countries move towards Axis.


A...none,,it is trick to avoid DoW penalties against Italy
(sneaky but effective)

B: Belgium Denmark Ireland Luxembourg Norway Portugal Sweden
Iraq / Iran Netherlands Spain

C: Bulgaria Finland Norway Romania Sweden
Hungary Spain
+(addition) Belgium Denmark Ireland Luxembourg Norway Portugal Sweden
Iraq / Iran Netherlands Spain
( double move by 3 countries)

D: Bulgaria Finland Norway Romania Sweden
Hungary Spain
( and these only)

E: something else...input answer here.......











 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Bernatz
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
EDIT: As noted above, Italy is not listed in the first list of countries affected by a Democratic DOW, but /is/ in the second list exclusive to a "UK" DoW...

-------------------------------------

Again, Dan can confirm...but I believe the answers should be (see in-line below):

redbirdie wrote:
thx for your opinion/answer.
Personally I feel, that punishment should be according 16.1.5


and for following sentence

"In addition to the above, if the UK declares war on Italy before Italy is an Active Major Power (which would automatically place them at war with the UK), then shift the diplomatic mark- ers of all of the following nations (if Neutral) one step towards the Axis on the Diplomatic Track:

Bulgaria Finland Norway Romania Sweden
Hungary Spain

so all 7 countries get shift...

or does " addition" means...that below

Belgium Denmark Ireland Luxembourg Norway Portugal Sweden
Iraq / Iran Netherlands Spain
move towards axis

and then rest of 7 countries move again?


Yes, if the UK initiates the DOW, some countries will move twice. They didn't do it historically for fear of annoying other countries and there are very real consequences if the UK wants to go this route in the game.


Quote:
Anyway...any clarification to my dummy thinking is appreciated.



France DoW Italy...( Must the UK join the DoW? Can Uk be separately in peace?)

1. No..Democrats fights together and die together. If someone DoW...all democrats DoW.
2. Of course they can be separately. They are independent nations. Later on they pay/announce DoW whenever UK want. Or get Declared upon.


Since the minor is placed in Germany (or Italy's) control - or, in this case, Italy joins the Fascist side as another "power" - there is no separate peace/war. Wars are "all in" for that side...either the Democracies are at war with the Fascists or they are not. The /only/ exceptions are Italy and the USA, which are governed by special rules...but once they are on the designated side, they are at war with everyone fighting that side. Simplification? Yes...but resolves having to have a huge number of rules for multiple states of war, etc.

Quote:
following countries move towards Axis.


A...none,,it is trick to avoid DoW penalties against Italy
(sneaky but effective)


And that alone should be your answer...why have the penalties in place if the players can just avoid them by having France issue the DoW. But, I admit, the rule is not clearly written to negate this - but it should be.

Quote:
B: Belgium Denmark Ireland Luxembourg Norway Portugal Sweden
Iraq / Iran Netherlands Spain

C: Bulgaria Finland Norway Romania Sweden
Hungary Spain
+(addition) Belgium Denmark Ireland Luxembourg Norway Portugal Sweden
Iraq / Iran Netherlands Spain
( double move by 3 countries)


Again, and Dan can confirm, my understanding is that "C" is the correct answer...all the initial countries move, then all the second countries move (including double moves by the three). As now noted, Italy is not listed on both lists.

Quote:
D: Bulgaria Finland Norway Romania Sweden
Hungary Spain
( and these only)

E: something else...input answer here.......


Once Dan confirms, I'll make a note for the next FAQ/errata sheet.

-K
Acting Developer The Supreme Commander
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jussi Perttila
Finland
lahti
hame
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thx for answers.. I am grateful.
now just awaiting next conflict with rules with Pekka
( This game is not won on the field of battle with tactic, but with shadow of rulebook..


Great support .

For my limited gaming experience...sort of hybrid with World in flames(Hq important as command and supply and 10die system with battles) and Third reich( Production MSP system)








 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pekka Hakoma
Finland
Riihimaki
flag msg tools
I suggest not to leave your Italy ports and cities empty, with the older ruleset Italy would have fallen already
As for my question it was if I can move Brits to Italy, the penalty is fine.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pekka Hakoma
Finland
Riihimaki
flag msg tools
Quotes from the rulebook:

17.14.2 UK Declaration of War
If the UK declares are upon any of the following nations, see
16.1.5 for the associative effect on the Diplomatic status of
other nations:
Belgium Bulgaria Denmark
Finland Hungary Iraq / Iran
Ireland Italy Luxembourg
Netherlands Norway Portugal
Romania Spain Sweden

Moving on to 16.1.5:

16.1.5 Western Allied Belligerence
If a Western Allied Major Power (UK, France, or US) declares
war on any one of the following nations, then ALL of the others
currently Neutral on the list shift one towards the Axis. This
is applied for each and every nation that is declared war upon.
Belgium Denmark Iraq / Iran
Ireland Luxembourg Netherlands
Norway Portugal Spain
Sweden

UK and France declared war on Italy which is not on the list above, no diplomatic consequences?

In addition to the above, if the UK declares war on Italy before Italy is an Active Major Power
(which would automatically place them at war with the UK), then shift the diplomatic
markers of all of the following nations (if Neutral) one step towards the Axis on the Diplomatic Track:

Bulgaria Finland Norway Romania Sweden
Hungary Spain


UK and France declared war on Italy, now we have diplomatic consequences?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Bernatz
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BlackcatFin wrote:
Quotes from the rulebook:

17.14.2 UK Declaration of War
If the UK declares are upon any of the following nations, see
16.1.5 for the associative effect on the Diplomatic status of
other nations:
Belgium Bulgaria Denmark
Finland Hungary Iraq / Iran
Ireland Italy Luxembourg
Netherlands Norway Portugal
Romania Spain Sweden

Moving on to 16.1.5:

16.1.5 Western Allied Belligerence
If a Western Allied Major Power (UK, France, or US) declares
war on any one of the following nations, then ALL of the others
currently Neutral on the list shift one towards the Axis. This
is applied for each and every nation that is declared war upon.
Belgium Denmark Iraq / Iran
Ireland Luxembourg Netherlands
Norway Portugal Spain
Sweden

UK and France declared war on Italy which is not on the list above, no diplomatic consequences?


Yes, sorry...I was answering the question without digging into the facts a bit more. In the first section of 16.1.5, it is explicit that it does not matter which Democracy DOWs...all those minors shift. And, yes, Italy is not listed there. BUT...for arguments sake, if France or the UK DOW'ed a country listed in each list at the same time, there WOULD be double shifts, IMO (i.e. if they DOW'ed Spain and Italy at the same time).

Quote:
In addition to the above, if the UK declares war on Italy before Italy is an Active Major Power
(which would automatically place them at war with the UK), then shift the diplomatic
markers of all of the following nations (if Neutral) one step towards the Axis on the Diplomatic Track:

Bulgaria Finland Norway Romania Sweden
Hungary Spain

UK and France declared war on Italy, now we have diplomatic consequences?


My answer remains above - no. Simply by having France do the DOW, which then brings UK into the war, is not a way to avoid the shifts. The rule should probably be reworded slightly to say "if the UK declares war on Italy (or ends up at war with Italy due to a DOW by an ally) before Italy ...". Or even just going with the previous verbiage "If a Western Allied Major Power declares war on Italy before Italy ...". I'd probably go with the latter, to be honest.

Having France issue the DOW, bringing the UK into the war, should not avoid the shifts associated with the UK in 16.1.5.

-K
Acting Developer, TSC
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.