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Subject: Just a Funny Thought About Our Collective Rule Issues rss

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John Middleton
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Anyone here familiar with original White Box Dungeons and Dragons Dungeons & Dragons (Woodgrain Box & White Box Sets)?

In the early days, the rules were very vague and open to interpretation. Offical info was rare, and limited to a few articles in fanzines or possibly The Strategic Review. It often opened up more questions than it answered, like Gygax's famoue combat examples that suddnely mentioned disarming and capturing a hero.

These debates carried forward to the point that drastically different versions of the game evolved amongst play groups that were seperated geographically. Some groups wrote their own supplements The Arduin Grimoire 1: The Arduin Grimoire and started publishing "more Realisitc" combat and magic supplements Arms Law (1st Edition) Spell Law (1st Edition). Some even went so far as to branch out into entirely new games RuneQuest (1st Edition).

It got so diverse that Gygax wrote most of Advanced D&D so that there would be a common ground for tournament based play.

Even today debate and interpretation continues on sites like dragonsfoot and the tons of OSR blogs.


Myth reminds me of that sort of interaction. Everyone is trying to find the pros and cons of this new game system. We are trying to puzzle out how it works from vague and oft contradictory rules. There are lots of little things that have no purpose but to confuse right now because they are hints at bigger things down the road.

Our major asset is the the speed of communications now and access to the creators without recourse to letters that may go unanswered. While we probably won't develop lots of regional variations, it still is a similar experience.

Exciting time for a new game, even if it is frustrating.
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Endevor Rovedne
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We played Battlestar Galactica with a 2 maximum card per test imaginary rule. For maybe 2 years, 3 or 4 gamer groups with common players played the same way
 
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Judy Krauss
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You're right, John. Every gaming group had its own house rules for D&D (and even AD&D -- our group added tons of detailed rules for tactical battles, wounds, spell components, weight and encumbrance, backstory, etc. ). It made it interesting if you tried to join a new group...
 
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Thorsten Schröder
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With RPG-Rules I tend to think "The simpler the better".
You don't want rules to stand in the way of the story or the actual "playing of the roles". So if you are uncertain of a rule the GM should make up a rule so you can continue playing without delay (you can look it up after the session and perhaps play it the next time RAW - or just keep playing as you like).

I don't know if that aproach would wor for Myth scince I don't have it yet. But Myth is supposed to be a story driven board game and the Players together are also GMs. In Order to keep the flow of the game I guess I'd like to start playing it as I play RPGs.
 
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Matthew Hart

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I guess this is why I'm not too worried about the ruleset at this point. Some things could be spelled out a bit more, but that doesn't bother me. If the intent is to be a sandbox system to jump into and have fun, then house rules will be abundant. Some gamers won't like this and will not enjoy the game.

I played D&D and then AD&D for years. We had our own set way of playing and our own house rules that we used. We had fun and the game felt balanced to us. That is all that matters. Some new players in our group didn't always agree, because they had house ruled things differently.

There are so many little things that players will have to make a ruling on here. I say just be consistent and try to enjoy yourself. Life is too short to sweat the small stuff.

I'm sure in time there will be an errata (sp?) that will cover nearly every issue that has come up (Ex: Can my Acolyte use a Mace? It has a benefit for rage on the fate die (SOldier only?)) in the mean time it is best to house rule it and be open to a different interpretation later (My Answer: Yes, all "clerics" in other games have used maces, so why not this one)
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Brian M
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I'm amazed at how people try to rationalize badatrocious rule writing.

Quote:
I guess this is why I'm not too worried about the ruleset at this point.

I'm exceedingly worried about the ruleset because I just bought a hundred dollar game that I've got no frickin' clue how to play. I've read a 60 page rulebook and I don't even really know what the object of the game is.
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Mike Urban
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Actually, the Myth issues remind me of another boardgame (with a tiled board) that attempted to mimic the RPG experience in a boardgame format: Magic Realm, whose rulebooks were legendary in their obscurity.

 
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Josh Strickland
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StormKnight wrote:
I'm amazed at how people try to rationalize badatrocious rule writing.

Quote:
I guess this is why I'm not too worried about the ruleset at this point.

I'm exceedingly worried about the ruleset because I just bought a hundred dollar game that I've got no frickin' clue how to play. I've read a 60 page rulebook and I don't even really know what the object of the game is.


I'm not saying that the rulebook doesn't need a lot of help, but I agree with the overall sentiment it'll be fine. I kickstarted the game because Myth seemed to have the RPG-feel out of a board game box. I've noticed a lot of old-school D&D guys in the forums posting house-rules, which as John points out, is how almost everybody used to play D&D.

Myth has a great set of components and a ruleset with a good base structure. It just needs to be rewritten for clarity, fleshed out and polished. That's still a LOT of work, but it's doable.
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William Cunningham
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I've been vacillating between frustration and elation with the game since I got it. I rated it a 5 at one point, only to go back and rate it an 8 the next day after I played another game using some rule clarifications from the FAQ. Of course, the next day I went back to a 5 after becoming frustrated with it for something else.

I've decided since then to just hold off on any reviews and just play it a bit more. I'm kind of waiting on an official faq and/or revised rulebook before I make any solid conclusions about this game.
 
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Raphael Pigulla
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I agree. As horrible as the rulebook may be, if the game is good it won't matter in the end. At least not for the people here, it will probably be a PITA for those who buy it at their FLGS unsuspectingly.
 
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Julian St. Pierre
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StormKnight wrote:
I'm amazed at how people try to rationalize badatrocious rule writing.

Quote:
I guess this is why I'm not too worried about the ruleset at this point.

I'm exceedingly worried about the ruleset because I just bought a hundred dollar game that I've got no frickin' clue how to play. I've read a 60 page rulebook and I don't even really know what the object of the game is.


The rules have issues but the games is hardly unplayable. I skimmed the rule book and got started playing. I started slow and didn't get everything right and of course have questions, but having no clue how to play is a bit of an overstatement.
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Brian M
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Quote:
The rules have issues but the games is hardly unplayable. I skimmed the rule book and got started playing. I started slow and didn't get everything right and of course have questions, but having no clue how to play is a bit of an overstatement.

Just from the rulebook and without the unofficial FAQ and the extra set up section they posted online? If so, can you point me to where in the rules it actually tells you how to set up the game and how you win the game?
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Naomi Nabbit
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I really feel that the issue isn't so much having no idea how to play as being uncertain which of two (or more) interpretations of a given vague rule are correct. The way I've been playing so far is to just pick one of the available interpretations, whatever makes most sense, and if it's clarified here later, changing the way we play it.

So, the Brigand is in Shadows and plays Unseen Ally. Does he grant 1 D10 and 3 Fate dice, or 1 D10 and 1 Fate die? Who cares, let's just go with 1 D10 and 1 Fate die for now and change it later. It doesn't make a huge difference in the end.

How many movement points do the two priests have in "The Two Fathers?" Well, everyone else has two, let's give them two. Does the Father who heals heal just himself or anyone? Let's say one adjacent hero, or himself.

When do you check for the Avatar of Winter's Icy Grip aura? Well, it says he activates in the Refresh phase, so let's check for the aura then too.


In other words, the game is hardly unplayable just because you can't play the game in the exactly, perfectly correct way. Sure, there are glaring omissions from the rulebook (poison's effect being the most obvious), and the rulebook is terribly laid out, hard to follow, self-contradictory, and vague. But, the game is still perfectly playable, in my opinion.

If you hit an ambiguous rule, just go with one possible interpretation, and go from there. Don't let it interrupt your game session. Figure it out later, post it to these forums, or just go with your interpretation and don't worry so much about getting it perfectly correct.
 
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Naomi Nabbit
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StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
The rules have issues but the games is hardly unplayable. I skimmed the rule book and got started playing. I started slow and didn't get everything right and of course have questions, but having no clue how to play is a bit of an overstatement.

Just from the rulebook and without the unofficial FAQ and the extra set up section they posted online? If so, can you point me to where in the rules it actually tells you how to set up the game and how you win the game?


Check the section on how to setup a tile, and how to choose the next tile you go to? And, when it discusses quests, it mentions Act quests, Story quests, and the difference between them. Just because the rulebook is poorly laid out doesn't mean it doesn't have the rules in there somewhere...
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Brian M
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Quote:
Check the section on how to setup a tile, and how to choose the next tile you go to? And, when it discusses quests, it mentions Act quests, Story quests, and the difference between them. Just because the rulebook is poorly laid out doesn't mean it doesn't have the rules in there somewhere...

I'll check when I have the chance.

I'm not being snarky by the way, I really don't know these fairly basic things after reading the rules. I think the FAQ clarifies some things. (Though I'm still up in the air as to how to win - I'm hoping maybe that will make sense when we look at the quest cards or something). And they posted a 'set up' section on their website - I had the impression that was because it was, really, left out of the actual rulebook.
 
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Naomi Nabbit
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StormKnight wrote:
And they posted a 'set up' section on their website - I had the impression that was because it was, really, left out of the actual rulebook.

My feeling was that it was there, just really unclear and kinda scattered.

I'm not saying the rulebook is any good, I'm just saying "unplayable" is a pretty extreme term that I don't feel applies here.

That said, I'm not sure how clear it is on how you "win." The way it works is that you choose an Act quest to do, and when it's done, you win if you succeeded. You lose if you're all dead before you finish the quest. Do you keep playing after the quest? Well, I have no idea.

You can also do freeform adventuring, where you go as many tiles as you want until you wish to stop, and there's no overarching goal except to get as far as you want to.

The Story quests all have pretty specific goals for each Act as well as specific layouts.
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Donny Behne
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StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
Check the section on how to setup a tile, and how to choose the next tile you go to? And, when it discusses quests, it mentions Act quests, Story quests, and the difference between them. Just because the rulebook is poorly laid out doesn't mean it doesn't have the rules in there somewhere...

I'll check when I have the chance.

I'm not being snarky by the way, I really don't know these fairly basic things after reading the rules. I think the FAQ clarifies some things. (Though I'm still up in the air as to how to win - I'm hoping maybe that will make sense when we look at the quest cards or something). And they posted a 'set up' section on their website - I had the impression that was because it was, really, left out of the actual rulebook.


Its all there. When you account for the fact that its a dungeon crawl and dungeon crawls usually have a universal victory condition, it becomes pretty clear how you win the game. Setup is also there but is not as explicit as a board game. It gives you options. Its in the section about what each tile can have on it.
 
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Mark Bigney
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I confess I am a bit mystified by some of the qualifications that people are using; "I'm an X gamer, so I don't find the rules so bad..."
I am a minis gamer, a roleplayer, and I know how to play Magic Realm from the 2nd edition rulebook. And the Myth rules (and cards!) are among the most obtuse I've ever encountered. Stormknight is right--the setup is a particularly egregious example.
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Rob Davis
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StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
The rules have issues but the games is hardly unplayable. I skimmed the rule book and got started playing. I started slow and didn't get everything right and of course have questions, but having no clue how to play is a bit of an overstatement.

Just from the rulebook and without the unofficial FAQ and the extra set up section they posted online? If so, can you point me to where in the rules it actually tells you how to set up the game and how you win the game?

Each quest card tells you how to set up the tile, win/loss conditions, and your rewards. See page 11.

Before you start playing you decide if you're going to play a Story, Act, or Chapter and that dictates how many, or which specific, quests you do.
 
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Dave NP
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So my copy arrived yesterday (physically beautiful, for the most part - I hate the bases, but most of the miniatures themselves are very nice. My favorite is the miniboss), and I spent a few minutes last night trying to read the rulebook.

I actually started laughing trying to parse some of it. My favorite bit is the hero token explanation: "provides important information for your hero." (Picture of the token, covered in icons and numbers, completely absent any explanation for any of them) OK, glad that's settled, on to the next topic!

Well, I thought it was funny.

My other favorite bit of what I read was the "Quests" chapter. The following terms are introduced over the course of two paragraphs: Story, Act, Quest, Chapter, Adventure. I gather they all have different meanings...

So today I came here to see if it was just me. Glad to find out it isn't! Seems like some people are gamely diving in, and I applaud their efforts. But while the unofficial FAQ on the Rules forum is sort of awe-inspiring, it's also more than a little discouraging - at this point I'm feeling like life's too short, and I should just wait on a revised rulebook.
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Rob Davis
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Ubik2000 wrote:
The following terms are introduced over the course of two paragraphs: Story, Act, Quest, Chapter, Adventure. I gather they all have different meanings...


Story and Act are explained in that first paragraph. Adventure is actually introduced in the 3rd paragraph, and immediately explained that it's an unofficial measurement of time for the players. The reading comprehension level for that is like something my son would have had for homework in grade school.

You can also find Act and Chapter Quests definitions in the Glossary.

Edit - just to clarify, I'm not saying there's no problems w/the rulebook. Just that figuring out chapter/act/story shouldn't be one of them.
 
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John Austin
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Will the retail version have the card and rulebook errors fixed?
 
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davro33 wrote:


Story and Act are explained in that first paragraph. Adventure is actually introduced in the 3rd paragraph, and immediately explained that it's an unofficial measurement of time for the players. The reading comprehension level for that is like something my son would have had for homework in grade school.

You can also find Act and Chapter Quests definitions in the Glossary.

Edit - just to clarify, I'm not saying there's no problems w/the rulebook. Just that figuring out chapter/act/story shouldn't be one of them.


Dude, I think that your sarcasm is unnecessary. The fact that the terms' explanations are split up all over the place, and that some of the aforementioned terms nest and some don't, are giving significant difficulty to adults with significant comprehension skills.
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Dave NP
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Quote:
The reading comprehension level for that is like something my son would have had for homework in grade school.


Because I found this comment a bit rude, I'll expand. I was admittedly being slightly facetious; it explains the terms, obviously. But the construction is what gets me. Let's give it a shot, shall we? The first paragraph lays it out as 'Story' being the larger framework. 'Stories' are made up of 3 Acts. Great. Fine.

The second paragraph, first sentence (I'm actually looking at the thing): "Quests are the lifeblood of Myth." Wait, what happened to Acts? What the heck is a quest? They link together....is each Act multiple quests?

The Adventure section is more or less nonsense. "Mostly unofficial"? What the hell does that mean? Whatever, ignore it. Next section: Chapter Quests. The smallest type of Quest. So there are different types of Quests. Ok. They can be failed but that isn't the end of the quest chain. Ok...'quest chain,' sounds important, let's make a note. Next sentence: Chain quests. Wish they'd nail down their terminology a little better, but having passed grade school with flying colors, I'm capable of clearing this particular analytical hurdle and assuming quest chains are composed of chain quests.

"Free-form questing." Implication being there are other kinds of questing (at this point I am assuming that 'questing' is synonymous with 'playing the game'). "Nothing says you need to do Act and Story Quests." Ahhh, ok, Act, Story and Chapter and different kinds of quests! Interesting. And, peeking at the highlighted section, that's backed up by the card layout. And there is more there about quest chains...this little icon, if it has a chain link, shows it it's a chain quest. So it's part of a quest chain...

I'm not saying the thing is the Voynich Manuscript. I'm saying I've looked at this page too long.

Also, I have to point out that the very first question in the FAQ is What's the difference between Story, Act & Chapter Quests and how are they set up?
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Donny Behne
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JimbobJones wrote:
Has anyone started a thread with JUST rules issues for MERCs to handle?

I'm not saying a thread to clarify the issues or argue about them. Just recommendations/questions that need to be addressed in the docs


There's one titled Unofficial FAQ that is collecting everything.
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