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Subject: Playing Limited formats rss

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Sven DJ
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I've never played an ECG or LCG before (CCG expert though), and I was wondering if it's possible to play Limited formats with these games. If so, will Doomtown: Reloaded be designed with Limited play in mind?
 
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David Boeren
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Can you define exactly what sort of format you're asking about?

Not all of us have a CCG background
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Sven DJ
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Limited play boils down to not having access to the full card pool for deckbuilding. Instead, you have access to a limited number of cards with which you build the best deck possible (which usually has fewer cards than your total amount of cards so you can put together a more focused deck).

The two most common ways of Limited play in CCGs are Sealed and Draft.

In Sealed, each player gets a number of booster packs they can use to build their decks. This is the most basic form of Limited play: grab some random cards, build a deck and see if your brew beats the opponent's. It's not the most strategically interesting way to play Limited because of two reasons: you can't control what cards you get, and it can be very luck dependant in a game with random card distributions. That's why most players prefer Draft.

Drafting works like this: each player opens a booster pack, picks one card, adds it to their pile, and passes the rest of the booster to the player next to them. This means that they also receive a booster from the player to their right, with one card missing. Repeat his process until the booster has been drafted.
Then you open a second booster, change directions (pass right instead of left), and draft the booster.
You keep drafting boosters this way until a previously agreed upon number of boosters has been drafted (3 in Magic). Then players take their piles and build the best decks possible, and play against each other. Drafting works best with 4 or more players (8 in Magic).

Drafting has a ton of strategy involved, because every card you pick not only strengthens your own deck, but you also deny other drafters access to that card. Most games have different strategies you can execute. By picking your cards wisely and determining what strategies are ignored by other players, you can try to be the only player who is drafting that strategy, which usually leads to having the best deck.

The thing that makes Limited play so attractive to many players is that you never know what deck you're going to end up with. This means it's almost infinitely replayable, as opposed to Constructed play where at some point everyone knows the 2-3 best decks, and you're playing the same games over and over again.

So to answer your question: I'd love to see a rules variant for Draft.
 
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fightcitymayor
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dboeren wrote:
Can you define exactly what sort of format you're asking about?

Not all of us have a CCG background
Limited Format = you are limited in your deckbuilding to the cards at hand, usually by either:
A) receiving a few packs (aka Sealed Deck)
B) booster draft, where everyone gets 3 packs, you open yours, take a card from it, then pass it to your left.

It differs from "Constructed" in that it isn't just you going through all 8,000 cards you own and cherry picking from there.

Fantasy Flight has recently attempted to capitalize on this market with their "Draft Packs."

 
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Scott Sexton
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svendj wrote:
I've never played an ECG or LCG before (CCG expert though), and I was wondering if it's possible to play Limited formats with these games. If so, will Doomtown: Reloaded be designed with Limited play in mind?


As stated, FFG has been experimenting with the idea with their games, but I've not heard anything about how well this works.

I've heard talk of "Magic Pods" which if I understand correctly are a similar idea where you have a pool of cards you chip in from your collection and then players draft from that pool/pod. If you have a large enough collect you can replicate the draft formats.

Its possible, but nobody knows what AEG is planning.

I for one really enjoyed limited format tournaments for Doomtown back in the day. I think they even had one such event as a storyline tourney for the release of the Pine Box set.
 
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Sven DJ
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scottatlaw wrote:
I've heard talk of "Magic Pods" which if I understand correctly are a similar idea where you have a pool of cards you chip in from your collection and then players draft from that pool/pod. If you have a large enough collect you can replicate the draft formats.


Sounds a bit like Cube in Magic. One person builds boosters for all players from his own collection, and everyone proceeds to draft them. Cube is an awesome format.
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David Boeren
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Nothing stops you from drafting in any card game by making your own cube our of whatever you want. I wouldn't expect it to be an official tournament type up front though. For one thing, the card pool won't be large enough for it to be meaningful for some time.

I don't expect sealed deck format because well, there are no sealed decks. Again, you could make your own but that's basically just equivalent to having someone make a bunch of decks and then randomly hand them out to players. If that's your thing, go ahead.
 
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B.D. Flory
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Once a few saddlebags (small expansions) are out, you could limit deck construction to the core set and one or more specific expansions.

It won't have the randomness of sealed deck play, but it will be limited.

AEG is also including rules for alternate formats (although not limited formats). Bicycle was mentioned by Todd Rowland in another thread (no more than one copy of any given poker value and suit). There may be others as well (and they're out there, even if rules aren't included in the box).
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David Boeren
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Bicycle sounds interesting to me, but I think I would not want to put extra limits on deck building until AFTER there are more cards to play with.


I know a lot of people play Highlander format for nearly any card game, here you are limited to only one copy of each card. This differs from Bicycle since you could have multiple Ace of Spades (for instance) as long as each one had a different name.

You might also see some sort of "Pure" or "Loyal" format where you aren't allowed to take out-of-faction Dudes. Purely conjecture here but it seems like it could be a natural limit.
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Davido
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dboeren wrote:
Bicycle sounds interesting to me, but I think I would not want to put extra limits on deck building until AFTER there are more cards to play with.


I know a lot of people play Highlander format for nearly any card game, here you are limited to only one copy of each card. This differs from Bicycle since you could have multiple Ace of Spades (for instance) as long as each one had a different name.

You might also see some sort of "Pure" or "Loyal" format where you aren't allowed to take out-of-faction Dudes. Purely conjecture here but it seems like it could be a natural limit.


I know "Highlander" as "Derringer" and along with "Double Barrel" is one of my two preferred formats.
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Bicycle sounds like an awesome format, though i guess it wont be avaible with the starting set of cards
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Davido
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If you are interested in all the ways that Doomtown HAS been played (which is of course not saying that many of these will be how it WILL be played in DT:R):

http://doomtownarchieve.webs.com/apps/documents/

document 3: Doomtown Formats v0.1

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B.D. Flory
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monkehbwoy wrote:
Bicycle sounds like an awesome format, though i guess it wont be avaible with the starting set of cards


I'm very curious to see the value spread in the core box (and indeed, how many copies of each card come in the box).

At one extreme, one of each card means 286 different cards, so there can be 4+ cards of each value. Bicycle would be very playable, and there would be reasonable flexibility in building your deck to specific value sets in standard constructed play.

At the other extreme, 4 of each card, 52 unique cards takes up 208 cards out of the box. Obviously, in this case, most bicycle decks would look very similar, especially once you account for each faction having its own set of dudes.

Of course, I'm sure the *actual* card mix will be somewhere in between. I would expect a few options for each rank and value out of the box, with dudes being the most restrictive due to the factional nature of the game.

And let's be honest -- in the old days, even after three years of cards, there were a few values for which the choice of which card to play was usually obvious!
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David Boeren
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A Core set with 2x of each card seems to me like a good mix. Buy 1 Core for casual play and you get to see a wider variety of cards. If you want a full playset for competitive play, get two Cores and you're done with no wasted cards.

This is one of the advantages of 4x card limits over 3x
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David Chapman
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bd flory wrote:
At one extreme, one of each card means 286 different cards, so there can be 4+ cards of each value. Bicycle would be very playable, and there would be reasonable flexibility in building your deck to specific value sets in standard constructed play.

At the other extreme, 4 of each card, 52 unique cards takes up 208 cards out of the box. Obviously, in this case, most bicycle decks would look very similar, especially once you account for each faction having its own set of dudes.


It's somewhere in between. As you can see here, the Joker is card 144 of 146.



There are also 286 cards but four 52-card decks plus four Homes, so there are 74 cards not in the decks - 70, if each deck also has one Joker. I imagine these will be neutrals and duplicate Actions, possibly some alternate Dudes to give variety to the default decks.
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B.D. Flory
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Jedit wrote:

It's somewhere in between. As you can see here, the Joker is card 144 of 146.


That was my guess. Good catch on the card number.

146 seems like a decent spread out of the box, especially if the first expansion drops quickly.
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Eric Jome
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svendj wrote:
I've never played an ECG or LCG before (CCG expert though), and I was wondering if it's possible to play Limited formats with these games. If so, will Doomtown: Reloaded be designed with Limited play in mind?


Um. ECG is a limited format by nature. Everyone has access to all the cards all the time... what limited would you want? You cannot draft Doomtown or play sealed decks or make cubes. It just won't work. Deck construction for Doomtown if far too nuanced and complex to just throw a pile of cards at it and make it work.
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Eric Jome
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bd flory wrote:
Bicycle was mentioned...


This is the only format with deck construction rules that Doomtown ever really supported. And it might take 3 or 4 expansions to make it viable in the new version. And it's more of a deck construction rule than a limited format.

If you like the challenge of limited play, I think you'll find just the basic game is as hard as most limited play formats in other games. And ECG means no reason to play "limited" - we'll all have the same access. There's no rare chasing. No Mr. Suitcase.

Note, I love drafting and cube play in Magic. Done it a ton. Essential and fun there because the game can easily support a random pile of cards as "playable"... not so much in Doomtown. Must have key strategy Dudes. Must have the right Deeds. And Actions. And in the right ratio.
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David Chapman
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cosine wrote:
And ECG means no reason to play "limited" - we'll all have the same access. There's no rare chasing. No Mr. Suitcase.


This is not strictly true, as we know that there won't be a full playset of every card in Reloaded. Unless there's four copies of everything other than Unique Dudes and locations you will need to buy more than one set to be able to construct decks freely. FFG's Netrunner has the same issue; although like DTR there is a playset of everything in the add-on packs, there are certain key cards that only appear once or twice in the Core Set, requiring additional purchases of that box.
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David Boeren
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I'm not sure that I can agree that having one product for the lifecycle of the game which benefits from 2-3 copies is equivalent to a Mr. Suitcase problem.

The job of the base set is to show the game to new players who may or may not be "sold" on collecting the game yet. For that purpose, it's better to show them a wider variety of cards than twice as many copies of the same cards.
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David Chapman
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dboeren wrote:
I'm not sure that I can agree that having one product for the lifecycle of the game which benefits from 2-3 copies is equivalent to a Mr. Suitcase problem.

The job of the base set is to show the game to new players who may or may not be "sold" on collecting the game yet. For that purpose, it's better to show them a wider variety of cards than twice as many copies of the same cards.


I'm not exactly disagreeing with that. On the other hand, you still get a competitive advantage by buying more than one copy of the game.
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David Boeren
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Yes, but the amount of purchasable advantage runs out incredibly quickly.

If you're able to afford keeping up with new releases then I'm pretty sure that a relatively small one-time purchase of only one product in the lifetime of the game is also going to be attainable if you want it.
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