joel siragher
United States
silver spring
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have to put my cranky hat on.

Ive been playing D2 regularly now, and I am going to take that Race Game analogy and throw it in the toilet.

I Just don't agree with that any more. True, Im probably the worlds worst overlord (pushover) but Im really having alot of fun with it.

Ive played the first act games a few times now. The race thing is gone for me. For example First blood, were you think you have to race the guys out, who ever finishes first wins, but really its a pretty sophisticated scenario.

Death on a wing is another I enjoy from both sides of the table.

So stop whining its a race game

Im also getting over the NO to SLIM character advancement. There really is. You advance thru your objects purchased from successful searches.

If you decide NOT to search well then there you have it. Youll just not advance.

So stop whining there's no advancement

Road to legend miniquest Dungeons can only be won by repetitively killing the monsters. Samey? Repetitive? Yes.

6 hours Descent 1 dungeons? Mmmm... Not here.

No decent monster kills in D2? Not here. As OL ive seen some amazing group kills. Yeow! and aggravating as all heck. If i never see another necromancer, beast master party combo, it will be too soon.

Im really inspired by the 3 variant solos, and look forward to the new coop stuff.

I play again on the March 30th. Cant wait! Long Live D2. Hazzah.

Cranky hat off.

24 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darren Nakamura
United States
Columbus
Mississippi
flag msg tools
http://www.destructoid.com/author.phtml?a=1364
badge
Darren@destructoid.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I mostly agree with you (and I reject the hypothesis some hold that the winning play is usually to ignore fighting and run past monsters), but you don't really give any reasons *why* you don't think calling D2e a race game isn't apt.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
trevor

Missouri
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree with your rant quite a bit actually. For as popular as this game is, it does get alot of hate. But that is mostly from two groups of players:

1) D1 players who feel butt hurt that their huge money investment of a game is not worth as much (although D1 is still a fun game so people shouldn't really feel too bad about it)

or

2) People who treat this as a super hardcore tactical game and table flip if rules ambiguities don't go their way

The quest structure and mechanics of the OL and heroes are really evolving and the game is really actually getting more fun as my group plays it more.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil J.
United States
Castle Rock
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
runescience wrote:
I have to put my cranky hat on.
laugh

runescience wrote:

Im probably the worlds worst overlord (pushover) but Im really having alot of fun with it.

In the end, this is what matters to me as well. I try to give the players a reasonable challenge, but in a 4-player game they almost always have a definitive shot at winning. Balanced? Probably not. Fun anyway? Heck yeah! In my eyes, if the players win, the players stay motivated to return to the table for another game. In that regard, everyone wins!

Not sure how you think that this is not a race game? Can you expand on this? At it's heart, it's the OL's objectives vs. the player's objectives. Whoever completes theirs first wins the quest, right?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Duncan Idaho
United States
NYC
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dexter345 wrote:
I mostly agree with you (and I reject the hypothesis some hold that the winning play is usually to ignore fighting and run past monsters), but you don't really give any reasons *why* you don't think calling D2e a race game isn't apt.


Yea, your whole argument is, "I've played it a lot, so I'm right."

Not convincing.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
joel siragher
United States
silver spring
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Idaho11 wrote:

Yea, your whole argument is, "I've played it a lot, so I'm right."
Not convincing.


ok .
Im at work. I cant remember scenario examples, I will provide details at home.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JH
United States
Albany
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Gaius wrote:
Not sure how you think that this is not a race game? Can you expand on this? At it's heart, it's the OL's objectives vs. the player's objectives. Whoever completes theirs first wins the quest, right?

It's as much a race as any game with objectives resulting in victory, I guess.

• Arkham Horror? Race! Close the gates and seal the old one away before it wakes up!
• Chess? Race! Checkmate the other player's king before he checkmates yours!
• Chaos in the Old World? Race! Be the first to win!
• Descent 1E? Race! Complete the quest before the overlord gets enough conquest to win! Or in advanced campaign mode, defeat the avatar before the overlord can raze enough cities or complete his plot!
• Mansions of Madness? Race! Discover and foil the Keeper's plot before time runs out!
• Mice and Mystics? Race! Complete the objectives before time runs out!
• Monopoly? Race! Be the first to drive all your opponents into insolvency!
• Pandemic? Race! Cure four diseases before they wipe out the world!
• Risk? Race! Win before another player does!
• Runewars? Race! Be the first to win!
• Starcraft? Race! Be the first to win!
• Twilight Imperium? Race! Be the first to win!
• Zombicide? Race! Win before the zombies eat you!

And so on, forever.

Really, many, many, many games are based on either reaching a target score or objective before other players reach their own, or getting as many points/objectives as possible before the time limit is up. I don't know why D2E gets so much crap for it.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
trevor

Missouri
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah essentially EVERY SINGLE GAME IN THE WORLD is a race:

'win before the other player does'

maybe Euro games kinda fall outside of this category, but I would say for Euros : 'by the end of the race have the best score!'
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Craig Bocketti
United States
Clifton Park
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bigGameGeek wrote:
Yeah essentially EVERY SINGLE GAME IN THE WORLD is a race:

'win before the other player does'

maybe Euro games kinda fall outside of this category, but I would say for Euros : 'by the end of the race have the best score!'


Well if Settlers of Catan is a Euro, then its definitely a race game
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
joel siragher
United States
silver spring
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Cranky hat on:

nice try guys.

The Second encounter of save the crops scenario with splig trying to rush off the map is a "race" scenario. But minimum of encounters does not a RACE GAME make.

I'll detail the scenarios after work.

Cranky hat stays on. Just cause.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
joel siragher
United States
silver spring
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sarcasmorator wrote:

Really, many, many, many games are based on either reaching a target score or objective before other players reach their own, or getting as many points/objectives as possible before the time limit is up. I don't know why D2E gets so much crap for it.


SEE? SEEE?!!

thanks scarcas
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark McG
Australia
Penshurst
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have 2 recent examples;

Castle Daerion Encounter II:
Eliza Farrow rushes through a series of doors and off the map, winning the encounter. Due to lucky door rolls, heroes never touched her. Other monsters block, but get off 1 attack whole encounter.

Overlord revealed interlude
Master monster (Ice Wyrm) Dashes to Shadow Rune, and picks up. Takes a beating, but escapes down corridor and other monsters block. Dash off map, encounter over in 3 Turns. Ice Wyrm never attacked.

I think you must distinguish between;
1. Victory by exit
2. Victory by defeating the enemy force (or champion)
3. Victory by achieving objective in time.

Descent 1 was mostly about defeating the OL Champion
Descent 2 in my limited experience seems about achieving an exit requirement.

So I think it is the Victory requirements that define a fight vs race vs timed scenario. Chess has no time pressure, unless you play speed chess.

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JH
United States
Albany
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The existence of race scenarios does not make the game a race.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark McG
Australia
Penshurst
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sarcasmorator wrote:
The existence of race scenarios does not make the game a race.


Why not? The existence, and indeed apparent majority of encounters being races would suggest it is. Your bold assertion is entirely unsupported by evidence to the contrary.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JH
United States
Albany
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Because, if you're defining a race as a scenario where the objective is to reach the exit, and if we're taking into account quests other than those in Shadow Rune campaign — which we should, since SR now constitutes less than a third of what's available — many of the quests have much more varied objectives.

There are quests where you have to defeat all monsters on the map, quests where you have to escort a character through dangers, quests where you have to kill specific enemies, quests where you have to deliver a balanced number of tokens representing weights to two rooms on the map, etc. There are race-style quests in the game; that is not in dispute. But the game is not a "race game" unless you use the broadest definition of the term (a competition with progress toward a goal), which again ropes in chess and all else.

To bring in another game by example: You can play racing scenarios in the "Halo" video game series, where you and other players race around a track hitting checkpoints against a timer. So is, say, "Halo 3" a racing game? No. It's a game with racing scenarios. "Need For Speed," by contrast, is a racing series. Racing is what you do in it, not just a thing you can do in it.
9 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dean L
United Kingdom
Coventry
West Midlands
flag msg tools
Minedog3 wrote:
I have 2 recent examples;

Castle Daerion Encounter II:
Eliza Farrow rushes through a series of doors and off the map, winning the encounter. Due to lucky door rolls, heroes never touched her. Other monsters block, but get off 1 attack whole encounter.

Overlord revealed interlude
Master monster (Ice Wyrm) Dashes to Shadow Rune, and picks up. Takes a beating, but escapes down corridor and other monsters block. Dash off map, encounter over in 3 Turns. Ice Wyrm never attacked.

I think you must distinguish between;
1. Victory by exit
2. Victory by defeating the enemy force (or champion)
3. Victory by achieving objective in time.

Descent 1 was mostly about defeating the OL Champion
Descent 2 in my limited experience seems about achieving an exit requirement.


But in both your examples it's type 2 for the heroes, and it's about defeating the Overlord champion (Eliza or the Ice Wyrm). For the Overlord then sure, it's about getting to the exit.

But there are very few actual race quests in the game. A race quest is a quest where both players are attempting to complete independent objectives before the other. There are some, the first Encounter of A Fat Goblin being the obvious example, where both teams are racing to get grain to different places on the map. There are probably others.

But Masquerade Ball (I presume thats the one you mean, not Castle Daerion) and The Shadow Rune are not race quests. They are arguably *chase* quests - where one team is trying to get off the map, and the other is trying to stop them and kill the unit trying to escape, but not races.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Martinez
United States
Irving
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
There is no doubt that some scenarios are races (or more thematically, chases), but not most. To suggest otherwise is to ignore the majority of scenarios that are centered around other objectives.

As for the other complaints, those are largely subjective. If someone finds character advancement uninteresting or the battles unappealing, there isn't much one can do to change their mind.

But, yeah, Descent really isn't a race game, even if sometimes has race elements. And I am puzzled that it would be considered more of a race than 1E, which was entirely about running to treasure chests and trying to reach the end before time ran out.

But, again, the debate will continue without much chance of resolution.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Newby
England
Bolton
Lancashire
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I've played both editions.

In the first edition, the heroes literally ran ("blitzed" - a recommended tactic!) through some quests. If that isn't a race game at a fundamental level, I don't know what is.

I've never seen blitzing in second edition.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff

Seattle
Washington
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't really understand the contention on whether or not its a race type game. Even if there were some objective standard for what qualifies as a race game, all that matters is if you enjoy playing.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Elder Basilisk
msg tools
Minedog3 wrote:
I have 2 recent examples;

Castle Daerion Encounter II:
Eliza Farrow rushes through a series of doors and off the map, winning the encounter. Due to lucky door rolls, heroes never touched her. Other monsters block, but get off 1 attack whole encounter.

Overlord revealed interlude
Master monster (Ice Wyrm) Dashes to Shadow Rune, and picks up. Takes a beating, but escapes down corridor and other monsters block. Dash off map, encounter over in 3 Turns. Ice Wyrm never attacked.

I think you must distinguish between;
1. Victory by exit
2. Victory by defeating the enemy force (or champion)
3. Victory by achieving objective in time.

Descent 1 was mostly about defeating the OL Champion
Descent 2 in my limited experience seems about achieving an exit requirement.

So I think it is the Victory requirements that define a fight vs race vs timed scenario. Chess has no time pressure, unless you play speed chess.


You should distinguish between overlord and hero victory conditions too. That would help to distinguish between chase, escape, and race scenarios.

For example, Masquerade Ball Encounter 2 is a chase. The overlord has to reach the objective before he dies. The heroes, OTOH, the win condition is killing Eliza. They have to catch her but it's not just a race for them.

The Serena interlude in Labyrinth of Ruin is the other way around--an escape scenario. For the heroes, the victory condition is escaping through the exit. For the overlord, the victory condition is killing two guardians before the heroes can escape.

Fat Goblin Encounter 1 is a race where both the overlord and heroes have an objective to escape with the harvest tokens.

Encounters like ruinous whispers where the opposing side's objectives are not directly opposing (kill all the goblins vs. one goblin must escape with the prisoner) can be even more interesting.

So far, I've found the Act 2 shadow rune quests and the Labyrinth of ruin quests to be more interesting and varied than the original Act I Shadow Rune quests.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark McG
Australia
Penshurst
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We have recently played the Lair of the Wyrm mini-campaign, having given up on Shadow Rune mid way through.

Of those we played;
Gold Digger - Hero Chase the token - OL Kill the miners, Valyndra take the token and run
Rude Awakening - Hero Rescue Survivors - OL burn the Inn/chase survivors
What's Yours is mine - Hero Chase the champion - OL grap the Ore and run
Armed to the Teeth Encounter 1 - Hero chase & kill Splig OL - Splig runs, monsters block

the Heroes looked ahead, Armed to the Teeth Encounter 2 was pronounced a chase as well. Playing something else.

Are there ANY slugfest scenarios?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
M M
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Minedog3 wrote:
Are there ANY slugfest scenarios?

If those don't qualify for you, then probably not. There isn't much point to heroes and monsters going toe to toe, duking it out when the heroes just stand back up on the next turn and the monsters reinforce at some generation point. So pretty much all of the scenarios have some time measure counting down. Either it is the OL accumulating fatigue tokens to get to X, at which point he wins, or the heroes and/or the OL have to accomplish some objective before the other side accomplishes theirs (such as moving something off of the map).

In Gold Digger, the heroes are trying to kill Valyndra. The OL is trying to kill the miners and also potentially kill and then tie up the heroes. In Rude Awakening, the heroes have to keep the imps under control while they try to rescue the survivors. So they have to keep trying to kill them. If those are just pure chase quests for you, and that's something you don't like, then it's probably time to move on to a new game.

The Finales are see who knocks out who first, but I wouldn't play a game that takes over 20 hours just for the last 2.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Raymond Morehouse
United States
Redlands
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
Minedog3 wrote:
Are there ANY slugfest scenarios?


I've got no idea what you are looking for.

By "slugfest" do you mean some quest where you just have to kill everything on the map?

No, there isn't. But if that's all you want why not spend 5 minutes and no thought whatsoever setting up a random map with 6-7 monster groups and just roll dice for a couple of hours.

Seriously, if that's what you are after could you ask for a better toolbox than Descent 2.0 for building games like that quickly, easily, and simply?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark McG
Australia
Penshurst
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Soldier wrote:
Minedog3 wrote:
Are there ANY slugfest scenarios?


I've got no idea what you are looking for.

By "slugfest" do you mean some quest where you just have to kill everything on the map?

No, there isn't. But if that's all you want why not spend 5 minutes and no thought whatsoever setting up a random map with 6-7 monster groups and just roll dice for a couple of hours.

Seriously, if that's what you are after could you ask for a better toolbox than Descent 2.0 for building games like that quickly, easily, and simply?


Slugfest.. a battle to decision.
So scenarios where the aim is to defeat the Lieutenant by killing it, and typically there is a time pressure. So a lot of tactical COMBAT. FWIW, most Descent 1 scenarios were of this character.

That Descent 2 has different objectives doesn't bother me, but that each scenario seems to revolve around having the Lieutenant flee as quickly as possible makes for a level of repetition. This is my groups main complaint about Descent 2, too many 'grab and run/chase' scenarios. Variety would be better.

I grant that the exception scenario in Lair of the Wyrm was Rude Awakening, but it really wasn't hard to move the Imps into the Inn and explode them (Special Action).

If I wanted to design scenarios, I'd re-do the first 9 from Descent 1 as a campaign.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rafal Areinu
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't know English name of this quest, but the quest in which you get Serena, 2nd encounter, is quite a nice battle. Overlord has to kill each hero once, and heroes have to either kill all monsters or kill Splig and escape. Either way there has to be killing involved.

The wyrm rises where your heroes battle Belthir on the arena has 2 encounters of fighting. Even though in 2nd encounter once Belthir kills heroes enough time he still flees

Many of the finale missions are also kill or be killed. O

Is there any particular reason why you would like to see killing something as an objective? It's not as if that's any better objective than others, and hey, it sometimes IS an objective.

1st edition quests didn't work well as campaign. I tried, using "campaign" rules in original rulebook. Anyway, those were too self contained, which is the reason those worked. Having that long maps without leveling up(as you don't level up mid-quest in descent 2nd edition) would be kind of boring. And it would be near impossible to simulate the way summoning monsters worked in 1st edition, as overlord deck is different and there is no threat management(I don't count Plot decks here, but those are for different stuff).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.