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Subject: Unit Scale on the Eastern Front rss

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Tim Korchnoi
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Some of you may have seen my thread about what do with a map that is, IMO, functionally difficult to deal with So what do you do when you love the rules of the game but the map is frustrating! The ideas generated there have made me think quite a bit and I have come to a different conclusion: perhaps the issue I am having is what level of units (army group, corps, division) is best.

So I am wondering what you all think

Poll
What is your favorite scale of military units for an East Front game?
Army Group
Corps
Division
      78 answers
Poll created by catosulla


I am beginning to think the problem may be I am more of a corps/army group kind of guy. And I am beginning to toy with the idea of taking Russian Front and adding the Panzer HQ, Depots, and chit pull system. I really want to try the chit pull idea, but all those divisions in The Dark Valley shake

So am I crazy to try to graft some of those rules on to Russian Front? Only time will tell
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Tony Doran
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Partly this depends on the game for me. I voted Corps (and in general, I think this works best for a playable game of the whole war in the East. But One of my favorite game systems is the EFS from GMT (vance Borries design). Divisions (and smaller) all the way, but it is also 5 miles per hex and 2 days per turn. It deals with limited period operation.

But for a strategic level game, corps works great.
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K G
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Army Group? Really? (Not that there's anything wrong with it...)
 
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Roger Hobden
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The solution to all your problems :

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Hitler's War

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Roger Hobden
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The answer you had in mind initially :

Spoiler (click to reveal)
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Iain K
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You realize that the distinction of Corps/Army can be meaningless on the Eastern front of WWII since games usually have one scale for the Soviets and another for the Germans?

IIRC this is because the Soviets "inflated" their numbers by having Divisions with the real manpower of German/Western brigades, Corps with the manpower of German/Western Divisions, and Armies with the manpower of German/Western Corps.

In other words, it's a common misconception that there were "hordes of Soviets", there were rather hordes of Soviet UNITS.

Edit: A quick online search shows Soviet units having an _on paper_ strength of roughly 60% to 70% of the manpower of comparably NAMED Western unit. For example, rifle divisions with an on-paper strength of 12,000 men verses 17-21K in a Western/German division.
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Carl Fung
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Within the context of whole hog Eastern Front games (June 1941 to May 1945), there's often a bit of scaling down on the Eastern Front level for the Soviet units like Iain said, like Corps scale (Equivalent German Corps and Soviet Army) or Army (Equivalent German Army and Soviet Front).

The thing that I don't like about German Corps/Soviet Army scale is how amorphous the units are in these HQ's. While Army/Front is also amorphous, the game is more abstracted that I don't mind it as much.

A German Panzer Corps could have 3 Panzer divisions or just one or no panzer divisions at all and contain four infantry divisions. The Army level more averages out so it can be a little more generic.

There's all kinds of ugliness too with Soviet Corps and Division level. The Soviets disbanded their official corps soon after Barbarossa and then re-instituted it in late '42/early '43(?). So any Soviet corps between that period are just "floating lumps of divisions" without official corps grouping. Even Soviet Divisions which died in Barbarossa were being replaced by the flood of independent Rifle Brigades which were then reconstituted back into Rifle Divisions in 1943ish. It depends on the level of OOB accuracy or depiction of the game for the whole hog East front campaign.
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Mike Hoyt

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citizen k wrote:
You realize that the distinction of Corps/Army can be meaningless on the Eastern front of WWII since games usually have one scale for the Soviets and another for the Germans?

IIRC this is because the Soviets "inflated" their numbers by having Divisions with the real manpower of German/Western brigades, Corps with the manpower of German/Western Divisions, and Armies with the manpower of German/Western Corps.


EastFront II does that, German Corps and Soviet Armies. Works well.
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Ron A
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catosulla wrote:


So I am wondering what you all think



I am thinking you left out tactical scales. I vote for individual tanks/guns/infantry squads, a la Band of Brothers: Ghost Panzer, or the upcoming War Stories: Red Storm.
 
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Roger Hobden
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Q : Unit Scales on the Eastern Front

A:

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Steve Arthur
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'I don't always play divisional scale entire East Front campaign games...

(Insert pic of elegant bearded gent here)

..but when I do I play Proud Monster Deluxe .'
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Depends what we're talking about. Map area.

Entire eastern front? I think corps works best. Army groups would be like 3 units on each side.

Sectors? I prefer divisions, and maybe down a level, with down to battalions as add ons.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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citizen k wrote:
You realize that the distinction of Corps/Army can be meaningless on the Eastern front of WWII since games usually have one scale for the Soviets and another for the Germans?

IIRC this is because the Soviets "inflated" their numbers by having Divisions with the real manpower of German/Western brigades, Corps with the manpower of German/Western Divisions, and Armies with the manpower of German/Western Corps.

In other words, it's a common misconception that there were "hordes of Soviets", there were rather hordes of Soviet UNITS.

Edit: A quick online search shows Soviet units having an _on paper_ strength of roughly 60% to 70% of the manpower of comparably NAMED Western unit. For example, rifle divisions with an on-paper strength of 12,000 men verses 17-21K in a Western/German division.


The Germans may have started the war with infantry divisions that (on paper) had 17k men, however, later in the war they changed their organisation. By the late war German infantry divisions only had about 12k men at full strength, and you would be hard pressed to find a division at full strength.
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Bill Lawson
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I will play an eastfront game on any of the scales you asked about provided its a good game.
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Enrico Viglino
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Mallet wrote:
The solution to all your problems :

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Hitler's War

What ? This isn't what you expected ?


The Barbarossa scenario IS a lot of fun.

Not believable, but fun.
 
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David Janik-Jones
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You forgot the best scale: tactical.

devil
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Lance McMillan
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I prefer the "feel" of a division scale game, but also realize that it's impractical unless you've got a lot of table space and are willing to devote a lot of time (e.g. multiple days, if not weeks) to the game. A game at the Army level can be played on a card table in a single sitting, but it almost feels like an abstract to me. Accordingly, I find that these days I end up grudgingly accepting corps-level as a compromise -- fits on the dining rooom table and is playable in a weekend or single long day.

DaveyJJ wrote:
You forgot the best scale: tactical.


I'd prefer a red-hot poker jammed up my arse. shake
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Dan The Man
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I voted "Division," because that is the unit strength of many games (TRC, East Front) in that one division is equal to the basic strength point. EF is actually 2 divisions per strength point, IIRC.

Most of the individual counters represent higher organizations than divisional, however.

I do have a feeling the OP was actually asking about the "named units" in the game...
 
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Jason Cawley
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A Russian tank corps is a division sized unit.

The question is kind of meaningless...
 
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