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Subject: Looks a lot like Blood bowl: team manger rss

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Michele Esmanech
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I might be wrong, but from what I read, the game (mind you, not the gameplay) looks like Bloodbowl Team manager, Which is an implementation of Knizia's Battle Line: 2 factions, fighting over objectives, placed in the middle.
Nothing new here... Moving along...
If it were coop, on the other hand... ;-)
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Ikim wrote:
I might be wrong, but from what I read, the game (mind you, not the gameplay) looks like Bloodbowl Team manager,


Actually my first thought was that it felt a lot like Call of Cthulhu: The Card Game, with the seven factions and objectives in the center...

Ikim wrote:
If it were coop, on the other hand... ;-)


What is up with people asking for every new LCG to be co-op? Co-op games suck. If all you want is to sit around with people in a non-competitive format working together to solve a puzzle, how about trying an actual puzzle? At least you get a pretty picture at the end of it instead of a sense of failure and nihilism.
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There is very little we know about this game and we most certainly can't say that the game looks like Bloodbowl Team Manager or Call of Cthulhu before the rules are released. The only similarity it has to these two games is that there are cards faceup in the middle of the table that you are fighting over.

Why aren't these games also just like Smash up, or Warmachine High Command? From what we know, it has just as much in common with those two title as well.
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Ikim wrote:
I might be wrong, but from what I read, the game (mind you, not the gameplay) looks like Bloodbowl Team manager, Which is an implementation of Knizia's Battle Line: 2 factions, fighting over objectives, placed in the middle.
Nothing new here... Moving along...
If it were coop, on the other hand... ;-)


You're a game designer?

Really? You aught to know better. We know almost nothing about this game. pass judgement at your own risk.

Seems clear you don't know 40k either. A co-op game would mean booting some fan favorite factions by making them unplayable. That would mean death for this LCG. Its ok for a small game like death angel, but this game needs to have wide appeal to pull in the 40k fan base which will make or break the game.
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Michele Esmanech
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radynski wrote:

What is up with people asking for every new LCG to be co-op? Co-op games suck. If all you want is to sit around with people in a non-competitive format working together to solve a puzzle, how about trying an actual puzzle? At least you get a pretty picture at the end of it instead of a sense of failure and nihilism.


I don't agree but ok... Let me rephrase that: if only it were solo-able

MechaBriZilla wrote:
Ikim wrote:
I might be wrong, but from what I read, the game (mind you, not the gameplay) looks like Bloodbowl Team manager, Which is an implementation of Knizia's Battle Line: 2 factions, fighting over objectives, placed in the middle.
Nothing new here... Moving along...
If it were coop, on the other hand... ;-)


You're a game designer?

Really? You aught to know better. We know almost nothing about this game. pass judgement at your own risk.

Seems clear you don't know 40k either. A co-op game would mean booting some fan favorite factions by making them unplayable. That would mean death for this LCG. Its ok for a small game like death angel, but this game needs to have wide appeal to pull in the 40k fan base which will make or break the game.


OMG: chill out, dude... It's what the fora are for: speculating and talking... No need to be rude

Edit 2: and just to be clear: it's people like you (rude and abnoxious) that made me drop out of 40k (yes, I used to play 40k and still own 15k pts of iron fists, 10k pts of Orks and 7k of IA and 20k of eldars all with titans for Apocalypse
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I bought a bargain box of the Dark Millenium CCG, which had some of the same features - battling over objectives in the center of the board. To be honest, I still haven't been able to puzzle the rules out for that.

Do we know if this is based any/at all on any of the old 40k CCGs?
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radynski wrote:


What is up with people asking for every new LCG to be co-op? Co-op games suck. If all you want is to sit around with people in a non-competitive format working together to solve a puzzle, how about trying an actual puzzle? At least you get a pretty picture at the end of it instead of a sense of failure and nihilism.


This is Warhammer 40K we're talking about here. Failure and nihilism is an important part of experience.
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radynski wrote:
Ikim wrote:
If it were coop, on the other hand... ;-)


What is up with people asking for every new LCG to be co-op? Co-op games suck. If all you want is to sit around with people in a non-competitive format working together to solve a puzzle, how about trying an actual puzzle? At least you get a pretty picture at the end of it instead of a sense of failure and nihilism.
I blame Lord of the Rings. Though, there IS the Pathfinder card game as well.

So, you have players coming in because they like the coop format, don't really look at CCGs outside of that, and then want something else that meshes with the style of game they like.

Or you have ex-CCG players who burned out years ago and actively dislike the competitive format. Either way, you have FFG telling them, "yeah, here's something you like," followed with, "but this new thing you might enjoy, isn't going to be like that at all."

I'm not sure, but that's my suspicion anyway.
 
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I find it a little odd that that FFG would retread an already used LCG IP like Warhammer.

I mean granted the LCG format is cool. I've enjoyed the format and all of the designs. But one thing going for them is that (while all of the games have been sorta samey, exception: netrunner), all of the THEMES have been VASTLY different. Why pick warhammer, one that you ALREADY have an LCG about? Just kinda puzzling to me.
 
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zenmazster wrote:
I find it a little odd that that FFG would retread an already used LCG IP like Warhammer.

I mean granted the LCG format is cool. I've enjoyed the format and all of the designs. But one thing going for them is that (while all of the games have been sorta samey, exception: netrunner), all of the THEMES have been VASTLY different. Why pick warhammer, one that you ALREADY have an LCG about? Just kinda puzzling to me.

Since W:I debuted, fans had been asking for a 40k card game, and besides, sci-fi is cooler than fantasy.
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zenmazster wrote:
I find it a little odd that that FFG would retread an already used LCG IP like Warhammer.

I mean granted the LCG format is cool. I've enjoyed the format and all of the designs. But one thing going for them is that (while all of the games have been sorta samey, exception: netrunner), all of the THEMES have been VASTLY different. Why pick warhammer, one that you ALREADY have an LCG about? Just kinda puzzling to me.


You obviuosly have no clue of Warhammer 40k.
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zenmazster wrote:
I find it a little odd that that FFG would retread an already used LCG IP like Warhammer.

I mean granted the LCG format is cool. I've enjoyed the format and all of the designs. But one thing going for them is that (while all of the games have been sorta samey, exception: netrunner), all of the THEMES have been VASTLY different. Why pick warhammer, one that you ALREADY have an LCG about? Just kinda puzzling to me.


Yea, Fantasy and 40K are not the same thing.
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TheWorstWizard wrote:
I bought a bargain box of the Dark Millenium CCG, which had some of the same features - battling over objectives in the center of the board. To be honest, I still haven't been able to puzzle the rules out for that.

Do we know if this is based any/at all on any of the old 40k CCGs?


This is exactly what it reminds me of. I had some fun with this back in the day. I think was originally Warhammer 40K ccg, then morphed into the Horus Heresy ccg. IIRC Dark Millenium was the expansion they moved beyond the HH and included the Orcs and Eldar.
 
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Syphus wrote:
zenmazster wrote:
I find it a little odd that that FFG would retread an already used LCG IP like Warhammer.

I mean granted the LCG format is cool. I've enjoyed the format and all of the designs. But one thing going for them is that (while all of the games have been sorta samey, exception: netrunner), all of the THEMES have been VASTLY different. Why pick warhammer, one that you ALREADY have an LCG about? Just kinda puzzling to me.


Yea, Fantasy and 40K are not the same thing.



Ahhh, I see, makes sense, thanks!
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Ok, now that the previews have been out for a while, I really AM wondering what - other than the theme - is going to differentiate this from Blood Bowl Team Manager.

The planets are the highlight reel plays; the tackling is like attacking; you're putting your "units" on multiple locations; the setup is very similar. The command struggle SEEMS unique (I think) and the warlord thing does too, perhaps inspired a bit by other LCGs like Netrunner's identities as well as EDH in Magic. Still, a lot of it looks like Blood Bowl Team Manager.
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walterskinnerFBI wrote:
Ok, now that the previews have been out for a while, I really AM wondering what - other than the theme - is going to differentiate this from Blood Bowl Team Manager.

The planets are the highlight reel plays; the tackling is like attacking; you're putting your "units" on multiple locations; the setup is very similar. The command struggle SEEMS unique (I think) and the warlord thing does too, perhaps inspired a bit by other LCGs like Netrunner's identities as well as EDH in Magic. Still, a lot of it looks like Blood Bowl Team Manager.

I hope it's like that... because I must be really thick, but I actually can't get the full grasp of the gameplay flow based on the previews we have... I kind of get the idea, but it seems like a franken combo of a lot of their games, Call of Cathulu, Netrunner and like you said, Blood Bowl seems to be a fair bit of influence too.
 
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Dark63 wrote:
walterskinnerFBI wrote:
Ok, now that the previews have been out for a while, I really AM wondering what - other than the theme - is going to differentiate this from Blood Bowl Team Manager.

The planets are the highlight reel plays; the tackling is like attacking; you're putting your "units" on multiple locations; the setup is very similar. The command struggle SEEMS unique (I think) and the warlord thing does too, perhaps inspired a bit by other LCGs like Netrunner's identities as well as EDH in Magic. Still, a lot of it looks like Blood Bowl Team Manager.

I hope it's like that... because I must be really thick, but I actually can't get the full grasp of the gameplay flow based on the previews we have... I kind of get the idea, but it seems like a franken combo of a lot of their games, Call of Cathulu, Netrunner and like you said, Blood Bowl seems to be a fair bit of influence too.


What's from Netrunner? Comparing the Warlord to an Identity is quite a stretch, it works in a unique way as it triggers only on the planet he is at, he can be attacked, you must protect him. And I don;t see any other comparisons to Netrunner (aside that both are card games )

I think that the previews have done a nice job in... well... previewing the game We know the turn structure and quite a lot details about what happens in each turn phase. I am quite relaxed that the game mechanics will be unique enough

I am more worried about the game flow as it seems that this will be one of the "card advantage" games - you draw not that many cards, once cards are played it is not that easy to move them to another location, cards have multiple uses - that all suggests that you will want a lot of additional draw power.

 
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I don't have a problem with the warlord.

I'm trying to determine what will actually separate the two. Because the previews make it look very much the same as BBTM.
 
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walterskinnerFBI wrote:
I don't have a problem with the warlord.

I'm trying to determine what will actually separate the two. Because the previews make it look very much the same as BBTM.


I've played BBTM and I've read these previews. I'm confused about how you are confused. Conquest doesn't seem to play anything like BBTM. There is a superficial similarity in that cards are played to central contested locations, but that's about it. Everything past that point is different, from type of card effects, to method of resolution, to the timing of resolution, to victory condition, etc.
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vantageGT wrote:
walterskinnerFBI wrote:
I don't have a problem with the warlord.

I'm trying to determine what will actually separate the two. Because the previews make it look very much the same as BBTM.


I've played BBTM and I've read these previews. I'm confused about how you are confused. Conquest doesn't seem to play anything like BBTM. There is a superficial similarity in that cards are played to central contested locations, but that's about it. Everything past that point is different, from type of card effects, to method of resolution, to the timing of resolution, to victory condition, etc.


Assigning units = assigning players
Tackling is a lot like some of the direct combat.
Main mechanism is area control over central locations with bonuses given for majority. Not wholly unique but the setup is almost identical.

I agree that there are some major differences, but regardless of how tapping/exhausting and drawing and whatever else are termed, there's not a gigantic difference here.

I really WANT to want this... and I'm looking forward to more information coming out. At this point though I'm tentative because it feels like an amalgamation of other FFG products rather than something wholly new.
 
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walterskinnerFBI wrote:
I really WANT to want this... and I'm looking forward to more information coming out. At this point though I'm tentative because it feels like an amalgamation of other FFG products rather than something wholly new.


I agree with your assessment of the similarities, though I do think there are enough differences that I can justify both in my collection.

That said, to the quoted portion - have you played FFG games from the past 5 years? There's nothing new in them. They keep making an amalgamation of mechanisms they commonly use in new settings, instead of making anything wholly new. I can't think of a single mechanism, outside of a game they didn't develop in-house, that wasn't borrowed from elsewhere.

Heck, their last LCG - the Star Wars one - I'm pretty sure I can copy and paste that rulebook together from 3 or 4 other card games.
 
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Idaho11 wrote:
walterskinnerFBI wrote:
I really WANT to want this... and I'm looking forward to more information coming out. At this point though I'm tentative because it feels like an amalgamation of other FFG products rather than something wholly new.


I agree with your assessment of the similarities, though I do think there are enough differences that I can justify both in my collection.

That said, to the quoted portion - have you played FFG games from the past 5 years? There's nothing new in them. They keep making an amalgamation of mechanisms they commonly use in new settings, instead of making anything wholly new. I can't think of a single mechanism, outside of a game they didn't develop in-house, that wasn't borrowed from elsewhere.

Heck, their last LCG - the Star Wars one - I'm pretty sure I can copy and paste that rulebook together from 3 or 4 other card games.


Mechanisms are one thing - you're going to find those all over, like worker placement, deck building, area majority, and the like. It's inevitable because these are engines behind the game.

But there's doing that, and then there's taking the Ticket To Ride game board and saying "No, look, we're going to play a totally different set collection game that just happens to work perfectly with the exact same setup and many similar components." The play area in THIS one is an abstraction without a board, but this is basically the Blood Bowl Team Manager setup.

But you're right - a lot of FFG stuff lately has been rethemed/reskinned/rereleased/version 2.0 of preexisting games. But they're pretty straightforward about that I think. Heck, with Marvel Dice Masters, WizKids was pretty up front about the obvious inspiration from Quarriors. But there's doing it that way and then there's taking something pretty obviously from something else that you've published, like this seems to be doing, and saying it's a brand new thing.

And you're also right about Star Wars - but look how relatively poorly that's selling. Could you really believe, if you knew nothing about the games themselves, that Android: Netrunner is outselling a Star Wars IP? What's going to let WH40KC escape that fate? Of course, they might be different enough, but the early looks don't give me much confidence.
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walterskinnerFBI wrote:
vantageGT wrote:
walterskinnerFBI wrote:
I don't have a problem with the warlord.

I'm trying to determine what will actually separate the two. Because the previews make it look very much the same as BBTM.


I've played BBTM and I've read these previews. I'm confused about how you are confused. Conquest doesn't seem to play anything like BBTM. There is a superficial similarity in that cards are played to central contested locations, but that's about it. Everything past that point is different, from type of card effects, to method of resolution, to the timing of resolution, to victory condition, etc.


Assigning units = assigning players
Tackling is a lot like some of the direct combat.
Main mechanism is area control over central locations with bonuses given for majority. Not wholly unique but the setup is almost identical.

I agree that there are some major differences, but regardless of how tapping/exhausting and drawing and whatever else are termed, there's not a gigantic difference here.

I really WANT to want this... and I'm looking forward to more information coming out. At this point though I'm tentative because it feels like an amalgamation of other FFG products rather than something wholly new.


Agree to disagree. It's like saying Le Havre and Agricola (just two of many possible examples I could have chosen) are the same because they both have worker placement and engine building. Not remotely true. If sharing mechanics made two games the "same," then BGG wouldn't exist because there would only be like 30 or 40 games and no one would buy anything new.
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As I said - there's a difference between sharing mechanisms and putting the game on the same exact game board and saying "No, it's totally different, I swear."
 
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walterskinnerFBI wrote:
As I said - there's a difference between sharing mechanisms and putting the game on the same exact game board and saying "No, it's totally different, I swear."


I don't know where you're getting that these are the same. The only similarity is having locations in the center that you fight over. I don't even agree with your assessment that attacking is the same as tackling. In WH40k you don't roll any dice, they take damage and are removed, not just downed then injured. I would say that this has more in common with Warmachine high command than Blood Bowl, but even then the warlord and lcg aspects make it pretty different.
 
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