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Subject: How often does your diplomacy games hit the table? rss

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Kingbird X
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I can imagine one group will play some really well designed game several times in a roll. But for games Diplomacy, do they hit the table a lot? I cannot imagine people in the same gaming group will play very differently after first several games. I guess it will become personal to get some different results.

Are you a Diplomacy fan? How would you justify the game on replayability? Am I missing anything?
 
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Paul DeStefano
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Do you mean games that involve diplomacy, or the game Diplomacy?
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Kingbird X
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Geosphere wrote:
Do you mean games that involve diplomacy, or the game Diplomacy?


i mean diplomacy game. Diplomacy is a very typiCal one. If one can use it as an example would be very easy for me to understand.
 
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Eric Johnson
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This is how the conversation goes in my group:

I say: "Hey, you want to play Diplomacy?"

My group:

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J C Lawrence
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Much like the 18xx, the people who play Diplomacy tend to play a lot of Diplomacy, largely to the exclusion of all other games. No, the games do not tend to develop similarly. A brief scan of Diplomacy related websites should be convincing there:

http://www.diplom.org/
http://www.playdiplomacy.com/
http://webdiplomacy.net/
http://www.backstabbr.com/
http://diplomacy.ca/
http://www.diplomaticcorp.com/
http://www.dipbounced.com/
http://www.dipgame.org/

And many many others.
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Thom0909
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If the game is well designed, there will be different paths to victory, and so on. Certainly, the losing side won't have the incentive to play the same way. Of course, players shouldn't be playing the same powers every time.
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Once about a year ago.

EDIT: Correction, my wife said it was well over a year ago.
(Every so often I pull up an old game from the basement and try to introduce it).
 
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Kingbird X
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Whoever is a Diplomacy lover, care to share with us the beauty of it? And whatvabout the replayability? Will it count more on peraonal charm or gaming skill?
 
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J C Lawrence
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http://www.boardgamegeek.com/collection/items/boardgame/483?...
 
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Matthew Charles
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In our hey-day of Diplomacy, we payed once a month. We called the event The Kaiser's Ball. It was an all day affair.
Players got busy and the event petered out.
But June 28 is the 100th anniversary of the assassination of Franz Ferdinand. And we will bring the game back with style.
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Matthew Charles
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kingbird123 wrote:
Whoever is a Diplomacy lover, care to share with us the beauty of it? And whatvabout the replayability? Will it count more on peraonal charm or gaming skill?


It'll take both.
Gaming skill is a must to know what you have to do one the map. Support this attack from here. Cut enemy support from there. And so on.
You can't do it alone. That's where the personal charm comes in.
As per re-playability, as long as everyone isn't playing as the same country, you can go on and on. And if you get tired of Europe, there are variant maps.
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Stephen Rochelle
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kingbird123 wrote:
Whoever is a Diplomacy lover, care to share with us the beauty of it? And whatvabout the replayability? Will it count more on peraonal charm or gaming skill?
Based on your posting history, I don't think you'll care for Diplomacy at all. It does not have any setup variability, which seems to be a good proxy for your definition of low replayability. Interpersonal dynamics are far more important than one's grasp on the nuance of army manipulation, which seems to go against your desire that the objectively best player should win a game. In Diplomacy, the player with the best grasp of the mechanics can be hammered flat in the first half of the game, no matter how well they handle the game mechanics.
 
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Enrico Viglino
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lomn wrote:
Interpersonal dynamics are far more important than one's grasp on the nuance of army manipulation, which seems to go against your desire that the objectively best player should win a game. In Diplomacy, the player with the best grasp of the mechanics can be hammered flat in the first half of the game, no matter how well they handle the game mechanics.


If there is a significantly 'better' player, they will almost always win.

The key skill in Diplomacy is knowing how to manipulate others.
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Stephen Rochelle
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I agree, but I don't believe that that's the definition of "better" that Kingbird favors. His posts are usually about objectively quantifiable skill. The deterministic nature of order resolution in Diplomacy is the sort of thing he likes in games, but I don't believe any of the rest of it is.
 
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Enrico Viglino
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Gunboat might be the way to go then.

Other diplomacy based games are among my very favorites.
If not for games wherein players can cut deals, I'd have
no desire to game with others at all.
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Kingbird X
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Thank you. That is exactly I need to learn.

lomn wrote:
kingbird123 wrote:
Whoever is a Diplomacy lover, care to share with us the beauty of it? And whatvabout the replayability? Will it count more on peraonal charm or gaming skill?
Based on your posting history, I don't think you'll care for Diplomacy at all. It does not have any setup variability, which seems to be a good proxy for your definition of low replayability. Interpersonal dynamics are far more important than one's grasp on the nuance of army manipulation, which seems to go against your desire that the objectively best player should win a game. In Diplomacy, the player with the best grasp of the mechanics can be hammered flat in the first half of the game, no matter how well they handle the game mechanics.
 
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Kingbird X
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For a various setup game, the better player may change according to his understanding of one particular setup of the game. No one is good at assess all the situations . However it look like in Diplomacy, the better player with interpersonal skills will win(suppose he understand the rule thoroughly, and basic strategy, which I do not think is hard to grasp since the map is fixed.) The bad thing about it is that the interpersonal skills do not vary if you are playing with the same group(my case, or most of the cases I believe). If you inclined to listen to this guy, you probably will all the time. And to certain person, if he loses to someone last game, he may be more cautious against their plans. I do not like those things unrelated with this particular game existing as a significant concern.
 
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Paddy Bourbon

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I have no doubt that diplomacy games are not in the OP's wheelhouse, but the idea that playing with the same group yields the same results is flat out wrong. If you're not varying your strategies and tendencies in these games, you're playing wrong. And if you always believe the player that then always betrays you, you shouldn't even be playing.
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Kingbird X
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mightypaco1 wrote:
I have no doubt that diplomacy games are not in the OP's wheelhouse, but the idea that playing with the same group yields the same results is flat out wrong. If you're not varying your strategies and tendencies in these games, you're playing wrong. And if you always believe the player that then always betrays you, you shouldn't even be playing.


You should live in reality. Not every one is a perfect gamer. Its more natural people deal with others in a personal way. You think smoke is bad, but you are a smoker. You think obesity is bad, but you are a couch potato. How can you justify that?

And, if you insist, paper sissor rock could also be a great game without same result. But that's OK.
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Mathue Faulkner
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kingbird123 wrote:
mightypaco1 wrote:
I have no doubt that diplomacy games are not in the OP's wheelhouse, but the idea that playing with the same group yields the same results is flat out wrong. If you're not varying your strategies and tendencies in these games, you're playing wrong. And if you always believe the player that then always betrays you, you shouldn't even be playing.


You should live in reality. Not every one is a perfect gamer. Its more natural people deal with others in a personal way. You think smoke is bad, but you are a smoker. You think obesity is bad, but you are a couch potato. How can you justify that?

And, if you insist, paper sissor rock could also be a great game without same result. But that's OK.

What?
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Paddy Bourbon

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kingbird123 wrote:

You should live in reality.


Maybe I should. And maybe you should work on your English skills.

kingbird123 wrote:
Not every one is a perfect gamer. Its more natural people deal with others in a personal way. You think smoke is bad, but you are a smoker. You think obesity is bad, but you are a couch potato. How can you justify that?

And, if you insist, paper sissor rock could also be a great game without same result. But that's OK.


What am I justifying here? If you don't want to play diplomacy games, don't. But your point that diplomacy games always end the same when played by the same people is wrong. Don't make up excuses why you don't like them.
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Danger Mouse
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Kingbird X Wrote: Whoever is a Diplomacy lover, care to share with us the beauty of it? And whatvabout the replayability? Will it count more on peraonal charm or gaming skill?


I play loads of Diplomacy, mainly at http://usak.asciiking.com/ (and the sister site http://ustp.asciiking.com/ for Machiavelli). I find the players here at the most skillful end of the hobby.

So what is the beauty? Well if you play skillful players, the game IS a thing of beauty. Each country plays differently, and each has many different ways of being played.

The early part of the game is just survival; trying to eliminate maybe 3 players. And it really can be any 3, as each surviving player is trying to get themselves an advantage for the mid and end games.

Then (in Diplomacy) the mid and end games are about stalemate lines. Players attempting solos, or alliances will be trying to rush to and breach those stalemates, while the other players will be trying to do the same, while attempting to work out which stalemate lines are going to be the important ones in the game.

Then in the end game, when the important stalemates for that particular game become known, its a case of securing them (for the defenders) or breaching them (for the attackers). Even a 1-unit country might be important for a stalemate line's defense.

It is such a clever game (when played by experienced players) with so much variety.

Just look at all the articles on the DipPouch about these games:

http://www.diplom.org/Zine/

I have 2 coming out in Spring 2014.

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Kingbird X
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I see your point. But if you really "hit it to the table", play face to face with the same group, what do you think about the replayability? Also, early elimination does not sounds too good for those always tended to be eliminated. Should they always watch the rest of the game?

jaa17 wrote:
Quote:
Kingbird X Wrote: Whoever is a Diplomacy lover, care to share with us the beauty of it? And whatvabout the replayability? Will it count more on peraonal charm or gaming skill?


I play loads of Diplomacy, mainly at http://usak.asciiking.com/ (and the sister site http://ustp.asciiking.com/ for Machiavelli). I find the players here at the most skillful end of the hobby.

So what is the beauty? Well if you play skillful players, the game IS a thing of beauty. Each country plays differently, and each has many different ways of being played.

The early part of the game is just survival; trying to eliminate maybe 3 players. And it really can be any 3, as each surviving player is trying to get themselves an advantage for the mid and end games.

Then (in Diplomacy) the mid and end games are about stalemate lines. Players attempting solos, or alliances will be trying to rush to and breach those stalemates, while the other players will be trying to do the same, while attempting to work out which stalemate lines are going to be the important ones in the game.

Then in the end game, when the important stalemates for that particular game become known, its a case of securing them (for the defenders) or breaching them (for the attackers). Even a 1-unit country might be important for a stalemate line's defense.

It is such a clever game (when played by experienced players) with so much variety.

Just look at all the articles on the DipPouch about these games:

http://www.diplom.org/Zine/

I have 2 coming out in Spring 2014.

 
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I see your point. But if you really "hit it to the table", play face to face with the same group, what do you think about the replayability? Also, early elimination does not sounds too good for those always tended to be eliminated. Should they always watch the rest of the game?


The replayability really depends on your group. If at least one player is capable of inovation in their play, and the others are capable of adapting to those inovations, then yes it will become a thing of beauty amoungst your group.

If you lack an inovative player, then I suggest a site like http://usak.asciiking.com/.

You don't have to play, you can become an observer and just watch.

There is even a group thinking where each player likes to write an EOG (End of Game) report of what and when they were thinking things. This is probably the most useful learning part of the game.

People are quite open and blunt in these, as most are seasoned players and do not take offence at anything. There is even a lot of humour between those people who have been stabbing each other sensless in the game. In many ways it is theoroputic, as the game (not the people/) can be very vicious. This light-hearted end of the game can really disipate the tension.

You will be amazed how many times stabs and counter stabs were purely based on logic and stalemate lines and solo attempt prevention, rather than any dislike of people. It really is like a game of chess, except you are trying to mess with peoples' minds at the same time.

So if you can get at least one person to observe a few games, and then pass on their knowledge to your group, then your whole group will grow.

Ask Chris on the site (ustp-judgekeeper@asciiking.com) which games are the best to watch with the most experienced players, and ones likely to write EOGs. He will tell you. He will even know which games are close to an end. Just tell him why you want to observe, he is a great guy and will want to help.
 
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Another idea. Look at the different opening strategies for all the different powers on the link:

http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/strategy/opening....

Some good introductory ones are the ones titled:

'An Introduction to ______ Opening Strategy'

If your openings for each player are varied, then your mid and end-games will differ as well.

There are well known openings like the Lepanto, and even variations like Key-Lepanto. Unlike chess, where in depth study will give you a benefit, understandin Diplomacy openings just make you more inventive and more able to make up ones of your own.

Sometimes I enter a game knowing I will try a certain new idea if I play a certain power.

Obviously there are things that are generally accepted as bad moves, eg Italy attacking Munich early in the game. Those are good to know, as they could mess up your game.

However, some of the experienced players try to get inventive to try and buck these well worn truths.
 
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