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Doomtown: Reloaded» Forums » General

Subject: How will fixes be handled? rss

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David Boeren
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Question for Todd if he's able to answer...

Currently in L5R the basic tool for fixing problems seems to be the ban. If a card is causing too much trouble, you take it out of the game. This seems to work well in a CCG because of the large number of cards and because nearly all cards become illegal over time anyway. There is no player expectation that cards they buy today will be legal several years from now.

Fantasy Flight uses a combination of errata, a Restricted list, and bans, in that order of frequency. There seems to be a reluctancy to ban cards and some cards have even come back off the banned or Restricted list. This seems to suit LCG players well because they *do* have an expectation that their cards will remain playable over time.


I'd be very interested to know what model AEG is planning to take for Doomtown: Reloaded if you're able to tell us.

I'm particularly interested because AEG already has the infrastructure in place for players to order single Rare/Promo cards so it may actually be possible to errata a card and then provide a reasonable way for players to obtain updated copies of that card.

Thanks!
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Chris Long
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dboeren wrote:
Fantasy Flight uses a combination of errata, a Restricted list, and bans, in that order of frequency. There seems to be a reluctancy to ban cards and some cards have even come back off the banned or Restricted list. This seems to suit LCG players well because they *do* have an expectation that their cards will remain playable over time.


You know, an interesting thing happened to me the other day. I haven't really played Cthulhu in a couple of years, but I was going to an FFG LCG games event and I looked over my old decks just to try to make sure they were all legal still. As it turns out, several of them weren't. And as I started to sift through all the errata in the FAQ I was just hit by this complete disinterest.

In the past, I was always in favor of errata. But that was when I knew all of the cards by heart. And I always felt like that was better than banning. But yesterday, as I read over the FAQ and tried to determine whether I'd have to try to remember new card text, I ended up on the other side of that argument for the first time.

Suddenly I was really irritated by the idea that I couldn't even pick up my old decks a couple years later and expect to be able to play. I mean, what the hell?

I don't have anything else to say there. I just found it eye-opening to be on the other side of that argument. Screw the FAQ. Print the cards right the first time and then get off my porch.

dboeren wrote:
I'm particularly interested because AEG already has the infrastructure in place for players to order single Rare/Promo cards so it may actually be possible to errata a card and then provide a reasonable way for players to obtain updated copies of that card.


That would be pretty cool.
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Todd Rowland
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We are still establishing our plans for that. As with anything, removing a card from "legal" play is not an easy decision to make.
 
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Edward Bolme
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Far easier just to shoot the people abusing the card. O.o
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B.D. Flory
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dboeren wrote:

I'm particularly interested because AEG already has the infrastructure in place for players to order single Rare/Promo cards so it may actually be possible to errata a card and then provide a reasonable way for players to obtain updated copies of that card.


Not sure how AEG does their print runs these days, but rares and promos that seem to be available individually to the consumer are often part of larger print runs. Promos and additional rares usually get printed with sets, not on their own, to benefit from economies of scale.

It's not as easy as you think.

Not impossible, for sure, but not easy.
 
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David Boeren
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Getting everything perfect the first time is of course best, but for some reason it's an elusive goal. Besides, it is better to have a plan in place for corrections before you need it than be forced to come up with one in a rush.

You know, the ideal model also seems to depend on the age of the game. In a new LCG/ECG, the card pool is pitifully small and every card is precious, plus having to ban/errata a card in a brand new game does not inspire customer confidence.

In a game as old as Call of Cthulhu or A Game of Thrones however, losing a card is not so big a deal, there are by now lots of them and the overall pool is not impacted so much. But then, it's rather tricky to change models after years of doing it "the other way".

Card-by-card replacements are probably unfeasible but perhaps you could batch them up and issue an "errata pack" every couple years or something, which would limit the amount of fixes you'd have to hold in your head.
 
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Papa Khann
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AEGTodd wrote:
We are still establishing our plans for that. As with anything, removing a card from "legal" play is not an easy decision to make.


Understood. However, it is often the right decision. Play testers miss things. It's just the way it is.

And as a big fan of the original Doomtown, I hope you will not restrain from controlling the play environment. And please, no "magic bullets" (i.e., cards whose only function is to counter previously released broken cards).

It Was A Mountain Lion... Tournament decks built around that card drove a number of people I knew right out of the game.

Papa
 
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David Boeren
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I don't think we need to be worried. They recently banned two cards that were distorting the environment for L5R for example. If it needs to be done, it will happen. I was just curious about the choice of which tool to do the job with since ECGs and CCGs are somewhat different beasts.
 
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Kenneth Sheffield
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What I hate most of all is the "silver bullet" plan. Card X is broken so they print card Y which hoses card X. Now most decks will have 8 identical cards instead of the 4 copies of the broken one. In addition, the silver bullet isn't guaranteed to be in your hand when you need it so the broken card still gets to be broken. Meh.
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Carlos Saldanha
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Quote:
Fantasy Flight uses a combination of errata, a Restricted list, and bans, in that order of frequency. There seems to be a reluctancy to ban cards and some cards have even come back off the banned or Restricted list. This seems to suit LCG players well because they *do* have an expectation that their cards will remain playable over time.


They are slightly changing that.

With Android: Netrunner (and I guess with SW too) FFG uses another method, when they see that some card is giving red lights (too powerful) they print an answer to that card.

Example: the Atman icebreaker was and still is dominating the meta on the Runners side. So FFG printed a Sentry with only 1 Influence (can be splashed in all Corp decks) that denies Atman (Swordsman is the name of the card).
So a Runner using an Atman deck must now add a way to deal with Swordsman, and this way keeps the game stable since you'll have many powerful cards but also have answers to them, and in a game where time is the essence you don't want to spend much time finding answers when your opponent is scoring points.
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David Boeren
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Yes, this is another tool that has always existed.

However, it's not applicable equally to all card games. It's more appropriate in Netrunner because cards are extremely long lived and are reused over and over.

In most LCGs this would not be as effective as the damage of a broken card tends to happen mostly all at once so you're likely not to have the counter card ready at that time, or be unable to pay for it, etc...

I'm expecting Doomtown to not be a good target for this technique as it's more like a conventional card game. Dudes die, Deeds can be attacked. You don't play something and expect that it will probably be safe and sound for a long time.

Coming out with new things to rebalance old ones is a common and effective method for tabletop minis games though - it usually comes in the form of putting out something new that buffs something old and under-used.
 
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