Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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utoption2 wrote:
From the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/21/us/general-sinclair-is-sen...

No one has brought this up, so I thought I would. So, a formerly esteemed, fast tracked General, member of the illustrious 82nd Airborne, graduate of West Point, gets off with very light punishment after hosing around with a subordinate. This is, of course, after he had requested nude pictures from other females in Army units.

I think it is utterly amazing that an Executive Officer gets off with mere $20,000 fine, no jail time, no reduction in rank. I understand that accuser "lied" about various details and that there was some starry-eyed conscientiousness to this relationship. However, a senior officer, who is in charger of writing efficiency reports for the junior officer should not be screwing the junior officer and then be getting a mere $20,000 fine for it.

That's my opinion.

Anyone else have an opinion on this one?


I do, but it's basically the same as yours.
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ejmowrer wrote:
utoption2 wrote:
From the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/21/us/general-sinclair-is-sen...

No one has brought this up, so I thought I would. So, a formerly esteemed, fast tracked General, member of the illustrious 82nd Airborne, graduate of West Point, gets off with very light punishment after hosing around with a subordinate. This is, of course, after he had requested nude pictures from other females in Army units.

I think it is utterly amazing that an Executive Officer gets off with mere $20,000 fine, no jail time, no reduction in rank. I understand that accuser "lied" about various details and that there was some starry-eyed conscientiousness to this relationship. However, a senior officer, who is in charger of writing efficiency reports for the junior officer should not be screwing the junior officer and then be getting a mere $20,000 fine for it.

That's my opinion.

Anyone else have an opinion on this one?


I do, but it's basically the same as yours.


Same here. And you have to wonder if there'd even be that much of a penalty if not for the publicity surrounding this one.
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
utoption2 wrote:
From the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/21/us/general-sinclair-is-sen...

No one has brought this up, so I thought I would. So, a formerly esteemed, fast tracked General, member of the illustrious 82nd Airborne, graduate of West Point, gets off with very light punishment after hosing around with a subordinate. This is, of course, after he had requested nude pictures from other females in Army units.

I think it is utterly amazing that an Executive Officer gets off with mere $20,000 fine, no jail time, no reduction in rank. I understand that accuser "lied" about various details and that there was some starry-eyed conscientiousness to this relationship. However, a senior officer, who is in charger of writing efficiency reports for the junior officer should not be screwing the junior officer and then be getting a mere $20,000 fine for it.

That's my opinion.

Anyone else have an opinion on this one?


I do, but it's basically the same as yours.


Same here. And you have to wonder if there'd even be that much of a penalty if not for the publicity surrounding this one.


I also don't take kindly to people in positions of power (presidents, generals, police captains, judges, etc), who are sworn to keep an oath of office, casually disregarding the other oaths in their lives.
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Even granting that the further promise of his fast-track career is over, this is exactly the sort of bullshit that undermines morale. People in positions of responsibility and authority should hold themselves and be held by others to a higher standard, not a lower one.
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utoption2 wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
Even granting that the further promise of his fast-track career is over, this is exactly the sort of bullshit that undermines morale. People in positions of responsibility and authority should hold themselves and be held by others to a higher standard, not a lower one.


My understanding is that the General had a reputation of being a womanizer and people (err, women) were "warned" of such when coming into his "orbit."


Which doesn't help much with command rape.
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Not sure much of this should even be illegal. But disobeying a commander, and misusing his government credit card. Should have meant the end of his military career. I would like to know what the sexual assault was, and that should never have been dropped, as that is a serious charge.
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utoption2 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Not sure much of this should even be illegal. But disobeying a commander, and misusing his government credit card. Should have meant the end of his military career. I would like to know what the sexual assault was, and that should never have been dropped, as that is a serious charge.


Slater, maybe you haven't been in the military, don't understand the command and review structure, and certainly don't understand the hyper-masculine, testosterone culture of the 82nd Airborne. I mean all of that respectfully.

I have a great deal of respect for the 82nd, and the division is at the tip of the spear. However, it has a certain torqued-up, certainly masculine, and as I said, testosterone-driven atmosphere that you get when jumping out of planes and going to Ranger School is how you get into the club. That being said, being a woman Captain Intel Officer, might have been 'hard' to fit into that club.

And when you have a womanizing General writing your Efficiency report, of which 3 bad ones equal not getting promoted which probably equals being out the Army, things might get interesting.

For instance, the General Sinclair, might say, hey babe, why don't you send me some pics, conservative on the clothes. And that might 'escalate' into hey babe, things at home are far away, and little general is lonely, so why don't you come over, and we can work things out on your next review, etc, etc, etc. And besides, my wife, well, that hag is b*tch.

Get the picture?
Kurtz, that rule applies to any hierarchical organization, so it is not unique to the militarily, and so I get it. But as far as I can tell he was not accused of sexual harassment, now if there was a case to answer here (then yes, like the other sexual misdemeanor case I mentioned) there are questions to be asked about why this was not investigated. But having an affair (or even asking for naughty pictures) should not in and off itself be illegal. As to whether or not he used his position for personal gain, yes that should be a courts martial offense, but then I said (in the case of his credit cards abuse) it should have been. If he was using his position to acquire sexual favors I would lump that in, but the source article does not say this was the case. Indeed the accuser perjured herself, so it's not as clear cut as is being presented.

Again I note that the obsession here is with the sex, not (for example) with threats to kill.
 
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utoption2 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
utoption2 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Not sure much of this should even be illegal. But disobeying a commander, and misusing his government credit card. Should have meant the end of his military career. I would like to know what the sexual assault was, and that should never have been dropped, as that is a serious charge.


Slater, maybe you haven't been in the military, don't understand the command and review structure, and certainly don't understand the hyper-masculine, testosterone culture of the 82nd Airborne. I mean all of that respectfully.

I have a great deal of respect for the 82nd, and the division is at the tip of the spear. However, it has a certain torqued-up, certainly masculine, and as I said, testosterone-driven atmosphere that you get when jumping out of planes and going to Ranger School is how you get into the club. That being said, being a woman Captain Intel Officer, might have been 'hard' to fit into that club.

And when you have a womanizing General writing your Efficiency report, of which 3 bad ones equal not getting promoted which probably equals being out the Army, things might get interesting.

For instance, the General Sinclair, might say, hey babe, why don't you send me some pics, conservative on the clothes. And that might 'escalate' into hey babe, things at home are far away, and little general is lonely, so why don't you come over, and we can work things out on your next review, etc, etc, etc. And besides, my wife, well, that hag is b*tch.

Get the picture?
Kurtz, that rule applies to any hierarchical organization, so it is not unique to the militarily, and so I get it. But as far as I can tell he was not accused of sexual harassment, now if there was a case to answer here (then yes, like the other sexual misdemeanor case I mentioned) there are questions to be asked about why this was not investigated. But having an affair (or even asking for naughty pictures) should not in and off itself be illegal. As to whether or not he used his position for personal gain, yes that should be a courts martial offense, but then I said (in the case of his credit cards abuse) it should have been. If he was using his position to acquire sexual favors I would lump that in, but the source article does not say this was the case. Indeed the accuser perjured herself, so it's not as clear cut as is being presented.

Again I note that the obsession here is with the sex, not (for example) with threats to kill.


Slater:

Here is an article, back from 2012, detailing his original charges:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/28/us/decorated-general-charg...

"The former deputy commander of the elite 82nd Airborne Division, a decorated veteran of the Persian Gulf, Iraq and Afghanistan, has been charged with forcible sodomy, wrongful sexual conduct and other violations of military law, the Army said."

"On Wednesday, Col. Kevin Arata, an Army spokesman, read a brief statement to reporters at Fort Bragg, saying that in addition to the charges of forcible sodomy and sexual misconduct, General Sinclair had also been charged with violating an order, engaging in inappropriate relationships, misusing a government travel charge card, and violating general orders by possessing alcohol and pornography while deployed."

"Colonel Arata said General Sinclair had also been charged with mistreating subordinates and filing fraudulent claims, as well as of conduct unbecoming an officer and conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline."

The accuser perjured herself in pre-trial hearings, so it's not as clear cut as is being presented. Does militarily law not take into account questionable witnesses?

Should he been cashiered, yes I think he should, but not for some iffy charges that may not have been able to stick (becasue the accuse was not reliable), but for what he was actually found guilty off.
 
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That's a pretty expensive get off
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I also heard he will be docked a ranking in retirement from one star to full bird. Which they say will cost him about $800k over the life of his pension. Not saying he didn't get off light.
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utoption2 wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
I also heard he will be docked a ranking in retirement from one star to full bird. Which they say will cost him about $800k over the life of his pension. Not saying he didn't get off light.



That's hasn't been reported, yet, at least not in the NY Times (haven't checked the WSJ). Do you have a citation?


http://www.blueridgenow.com/article/20140317/ARTICLES/140319...
http://www.omaha.com/article/20140320/ap09/303209935/
http://rt.com/usa/legal-experts-general-avoided-jail-217/

They all say it is not definite, but could be still coming.

Quote:
The only question remaining is whether the board will vote to reduce Sinclair’s rank – a decision that would cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars in retirement. Before retiring, he earned approximately $145,000 annually in base pay.


I'm surprised a one star made that little.
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utoption2 wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
I also heard he will be docked a ranking in retirement from one star to full bird. Which they say will cost him about $800k over the life of his pension. Not saying he didn't get off light.



That's hasn't been reported, yet, at least not in the NY Times (haven't checked the WSJ). Do you have a citation?

The article you posted said he was likely to retire as a Lieutenant Colonel because it was the last rank he held free of allegation.
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utoption2 wrote:

Chapel:

If recall correctly, reduction to Lt Col is punishment what the prosecution and the Army was looking for.



Military Times state:

Quote:
Despite facing more than 20 years in prison, he was spared any time behind bars Thursday and sentenced to a reprimand and a $20,000 fine — a punishment some members of Congress decried as shockingly light.

Sinclair, 51, immediately announced his retirement, capping a humiliating fall for the battle-tested commander once regarded as a rising star in the Army. A disciplinary board could still bust him in rank and severely reduce his pension.
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utoption2 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
utoption2 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
utoption2 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Not sure much of this should even be illegal. But disobeying a commander, and misusing his government credit card. Should have meant the end of his military career. I would like to know what the sexual assault was, and that should never have been dropped, as that is a serious charge.


Slater, maybe you haven't been in the military, don't understand the command and review structure, and certainly don't understand the hyper-masculine, testosterone culture of the 82nd Airborne. I mean all of that respectfully.

I have a great deal of respect for the 82nd, and the division is at the tip of the spear. However, it has a certain torqued-up, certainly masculine, and as I said, testosterone-driven atmosphere that you get when jumping out of planes and going to Ranger School is how you get into the club. That being said, being a woman Captain Intel Officer, might have been 'hard' to fit into that club.

And when you have a womanizing General writing your Efficiency report, of which 3 bad ones equal not getting promoted which probably equals being out the Army, things might get interesting.

For instance, the General Sinclair, might say, hey babe, why don't you send me some pics, conservative on the clothes. And that might 'escalate' into hey babe, things at home are far away, and little general is lonely, so why don't you come over, and we can work things out on your next review, etc, etc, etc. And besides, my wife, well, that hag is b*tch.

Get the picture?
Kurtz, that rule applies to any hierarchical organization, so it is not unique to the militarily, and so I get it. But as far as I can tell he was not accused of sexual harassment, now if there was a case to answer here (then yes, like the other sexual misdemeanor case I mentioned) there are questions to be asked about why this was not investigated. But having an affair (or even asking for naughty pictures) should not in and off itself be illegal. As to whether or not he used his position for personal gain, yes that should be a courts martial offense, but then I said (in the case of his credit cards abuse) it should have been. If he was using his position to acquire sexual favors I would lump that in, but the source article does not say this was the case. Indeed the accuser perjured herself, so it's not as clear cut as is being presented.

Again I note that the obsession here is with the sex, not (for example) with threats to kill.


Slater:

Here is an article, back from 2012, detailing his original charges:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/28/us/decorated-general-charg...

"The former deputy commander of the elite 82nd Airborne Division, a decorated veteran of the Persian Gulf, Iraq and Afghanistan, has been charged with forcible sodomy, wrongful sexual conduct and other violations of military law, the Army said."

"On Wednesday, Col. Kevin Arata, an Army spokesman, read a brief statement to reporters at Fort Bragg, saying that in addition to the charges of forcible sodomy and sexual misconduct, General Sinclair had also been charged with violating an order, engaging in inappropriate relationships, misusing a government travel charge card, and violating general orders by possessing alcohol and pornography while deployed."

"Colonel Arata said General Sinclair had also been charged with mistreating subordinates and filing fraudulent claims, as well as of conduct unbecoming an officer and conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline."

The accuser perjured herself in pre-trial hearings, so it's not as clear cut as is being presented. Does militarily law not take into account questionable witnesses?

Should he been cashiered, yes I think he should, but not for some iffy charges that may not have been able to stick (becasue the accuse was not reliable), but for what he was actually found guilty off.


The bigger question is whether the system itself is corrupt?

Yes, the accuser prejured herself. But, for Sinclair to get off for a mere $20,000 is ludicrous.
I agree, I just do not agree on what he should have been punished for.
 
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MWChapel wrote:
utoption2 wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
I also heard he will be docked a ranking in retirement from one star to full bird. Which they say will cost him about $800k over the life of his pension. Not saying he didn't get off light.



That's hasn't been reported, yet, at least not in the NY Times (haven't checked the WSJ). Do you have a citation?


http://www.blueridgenow.com/article/20140317/ARTICLES/140319...
http://www.omaha.com/article/20140320/ap09/303209935/
http://rt.com/usa/legal-experts-general-avoided-jail-217/

They all say it is not definite, but could be still coming.

Quote:
The only question remaining is whether the board will vote to reduce Sinclair’s rank – a decision that would cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars in retirement. Before retiring, he earned approximately $145,000 annually in base pay.



I'm surprised a one star made that little.
Base pay. He probably made over $200K total.
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And he has a reserved car space pretty much everywhere.
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jarredscott78 wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
utoption2 wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
I also heard he will be docked a ranking in retirement from one star to full bird. Which they say will cost him about $800k over the life of his pension. Not saying he didn't get off light.



That's hasn't been reported, yet, at least not in the NY Times (haven't checked the WSJ). Do you have a citation?


http://www.blueridgenow.com/article/20140317/ARTICLES/140319...
http://www.omaha.com/article/20140320/ap09/303209935/
http://rt.com/usa/legal-experts-general-avoided-jail-217/

They all say it is not definite, but could be still coming.

Quote:
The only question remaining is whether the board will vote to reduce Sinclair’s rank – a decision that would cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars in retirement. Before retiring, he earned approximately $145,000 annually in base pay.



I'm surprised a one star made that little.
Base pay. He probably made over $200K total.
Can you please explain this? I'd imagine that OT and independent consulting are not options, so what makes up the difference?
 
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It seems light to me, especially compared to MG Maher. It's debatable whether screwing subordinates or screwing subordinates' spouses is worse, but the situations seem fairly equivalent.

(I met MG Maher in 1995 when he was CG of Schofield Barracks, HI. I was attending air assault school as a cadet and his son was in my squad - so I went to the General's house for dinner on the weekend. That was a trip.)
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JoshBot wrote:
jarredscott78 wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
utoption2 wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
I also heard he will be docked a ranking in retirement from one star to full bird. Which they say will cost him about $800k over the life of his pension. Not saying he didn't get off light.



That's hasn't been reported, yet, at least not in the NY Times (haven't checked the WSJ). Do you have a citation?


http://www.blueridgenow.com/article/20140317/ARTICLES/140319...
http://www.omaha.com/article/20140320/ap09/303209935/
http://rt.com/usa/legal-experts-general-avoided-jail-217/

They all say it is not definite, but could be still coming.

Quote:
The only question remaining is whether the board will vote to reduce Sinclair’s rank – a decision that would cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars in retirement. Before retiring, he earned approximately $145,000 annually in base pay.



I'm surprised a one star made that little.
Base pay. He probably made over $200K total.
Can you please explain this? I'd imagine that OT and independent consulting are not options, so what makes up the difference?

Basic allowance for housing
Basic allowance for subsistence
and any number of special pays based on job description and qualifications

Last year I made about 40% more than my base pay and a lot of these allowances aren't taxed.
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utoption2 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
utoption2 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
utoption2 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Not sure much of this should even be illegal. But disobeying a commander, and misusing his government credit card. Should have meant the end of his military career. I would like to know what the sexual assault was, and that should never have been dropped, as that is a serious charge.


Slater, maybe you haven't been in the military, don't understand the command and review structure, and certainly don't understand the hyper-masculine, testosterone culture of the 82nd Airborne. I mean all of that respectfully.

I have a great deal of respect for the 82nd, and the division is at the tip of the spear. However, it has a certain torqued-up, certainly masculine, and as I said, testosterone-driven atmosphere that you get when jumping out of planes and going to Ranger School is how you get into the club. That being said, being a woman Captain Intel Officer, might have been 'hard' to fit into that club.

And when you have a womanizing General writing your Efficiency report, of which 3 bad ones equal not getting promoted which probably equals being out the Army, things might get interesting.

For instance, the General Sinclair, might say, hey babe, why don't you send me some pics, conservative on the clothes. And that might 'escalate' into hey babe, things at home are far away, and little general is lonely, so why don't you come over, and we can work things out on your next review, etc, etc, etc. And besides, my wife, well, that hag is b*tch.

Get the picture?
Kurtz, that rule applies to any hierarchical organization, so it is not unique to the militarily, and so I get it. But as far as I can tell he was not accused of sexual harassment, now if there was a case to answer here (then yes, like the other sexual misdemeanor case I mentioned) there are questions to be asked about why this was not investigated. But having an affair (or even asking for naughty pictures) should not in and off itself be illegal. As to whether or not he used his position for personal gain, yes that should be a courts martial offense, but then I said (in the case of his credit cards abuse) it should have been. If he was using his position to acquire sexual favors I would lump that in, but the source article does not say this was the case. Indeed the accuser perjured herself, so it's not as clear cut as is being presented.

Again I note that the obsession here is with the sex, not (for example) with threats to kill.


Slater:

Here is an article, back from 2012, detailing his original charges:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/28/us/decorated-general-charg...

"The former deputy commander of the elite 82nd Airborne Division, a decorated veteran of the Persian Gulf, Iraq and Afghanistan, has been charged with forcible sodomy, wrongful sexual conduct and other violations of military law, the Army said."

"On Wednesday, Col. Kevin Arata, an Army spokesman, read a brief statement to reporters at Fort Bragg, saying that in addition to the charges of forcible sodomy and sexual misconduct, General Sinclair had also been charged with violating an order, engaging in inappropriate relationships, misusing a government travel charge card, and violating general orders by possessing alcohol and pornography while deployed."

"Colonel Arata said General Sinclair had also been charged with mistreating subordinates and filing fraudulent claims, as well as of conduct unbecoming an officer and conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline."

The accuser perjured herself in pre-trial hearings, so it's not as clear cut as is being presented. Does militarily law not take into account questionable witnesses?

Should he been cashiered, yes I think he should, but not for some iffy charges that may not have been able to stick (becasue the accuse was not reliable), but for what he was actually found guilty off.


The bigger question is whether the system itself is corrupt?

Yes, the accuser prejured herself. But, for Sinclair to get off for a mere $20,000 is ludicrous.



Indeed, especially when you consider what lower ranked soldiers routinely get for Article 15s.
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Evidently, even the defending attorney was astonished when the judge read the sentence and there was no jail time.

Steven, adultery is actualy a significant security risk and for a general officer to make that choice is a serious problem. On top of that, sleeping with someone in their chain of command is bad for morale in the unit and not to mention also a security risk. Lying and disobeying orders to cover up those indiscretions just adds fuel to the fire and poses even more security risks. He could have seriously compromised military plans and the lives of soldiers if an enemy discovered any of those failures of judgement and extorted him.

He got off light.
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I agree he got off light and there appears to be a double standard with folks in positions of power. I doubt a sergeant or less senior officer could expect the same treatment.

The US Military is lead by civilian authorities and look what happens when the Commander in Chief commits adultery or someone in the other branches does drugs or murder. They get re-elected and have no consequences to their behavior. At least this guy is getting taken out of the pool.
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JohnnyOffice wrote:
Evidently, even the defending attorney was astonished when the judge read the sentence and there was no jail time.

Steven, adultery is actualy a significant security risk and for a general officer to make that choice is a serious problem. On top of that, sleeping with someone in their chain of command is bad for morale in the unit and not to mention also a security risk. Lying and disobeying orders to cover up those indiscretions just adds fuel to the fire and poses even more security risks. He could have seriously compromised military plans and the lives of soldiers if an enemy discovered any of those failures of judgement and extorted him.

He got off light.
As I said, I agree that his lying and disobeying orders is a serious offense, I do not believe that adultery should be (and it is only our ridiculous moral attitudes towards sex and marriage that make it a problem). Maybe if it was not a cause for blackmail, and people could openly shag who they liked it would not need to be a crime?
 
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slatersteven wrote:
As I said, I agree that his lying and disobeying orders is a serious offense, I do not believe that adultery should be (and it is only our ridiculous moral attitudes towards sex and marriage that make it a problem). Maybe if it was not a cause for blackmail, and people could openly shag who they liked it would not need to be a crime?


How can you trust someone that gathers all their friends together and takes a solemn vow to not commit adultery and then does it anyway?

Either don't get married, change your wedding vows or don't cheat on your spouse. But if you swear to do something and then don't, why would you expect to be trusted on anything?
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