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Subject: Playable out of the box rss

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Roland Bruno
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I've been looking forward to this game ever since the Kickstarter launched. It had tremendous appeal to me and I spent a large sum on it, which I'm now beginning to regret.
A game should be playable out of the box. I shouldn't need to spend days studying and rereading the rule book to get my head around it.
I'm not going to give up on this game. I'm frequenting the boards, studying, waiting for a walk-thru video or three and looking for a how-to guide and asking more questions than should be necessary.

Future game designers please learn from this. Don't design in a vacuum. Put your game in a room with some gamers and see if they can figure it out without any guidance. Note where they stumble, question and become confused and adjust accordingly.

At this rate I doubt I'll be playing this game until I go to Gencon in August and see it done live a few times. That's not right.
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Raphael Pigulla
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...and your point is?
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Roland Bruno
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Were you born an a**hole or did you work at it your whole life?
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Kevin Outlaw
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Wolvercote wrote:
I've been looking forward to this game ever since the Kickstarter launched. It had tremendous appeal to me and I spent a large sum on it, which I'm now beginning to regret.
A game should be playable out of the box. I shouldn't need to spend days studying and rereading the rule book to get my head around it.
I'm not going to give up on this game. I'm frequenting the boards, studying, waiting for a walk-thru video or three and looking for a how-to guide and asking more questions than should be necessary.

Future game designers please learn from this. Don't design in a vacuum. Put your game in a room with some gamers and see if they can figure it out without any guidance. Note where they stumble, question and become confused and adjust accordingly.

At this rate I doubt I'll be playing this game until I go to Gencon in August and see it done live a few times. That's not right.


There have been plenty of complaints about this, and the company has said they are going to redo the rules and make the amended version available. They have apologised, and admitted the rulebook is a bit of a screw up.

Of course, you are free to post, but starting another thread, rather than posting in an existing one, is probably going to cause some frustration, especially as your title suggests your post is going to be some helpful advice on playing the game out of the box.
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Shakka
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A great game with a bad rulebook or a great rulebook with a bad game, cant have both .

Lets just wait for the update in wave 2.
 
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Jonathan Foerster
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Roland, I am not sure what board games you are used to playing but in a game that has minis and changing conditions and characters with different abilities I am not sure what you were expecting.
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Roland Bruno
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lol... I've been playing board games for 40 years. I think I can determine if a rule book is worth the paper it's been printed on.
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Denis
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jfoerst wrote:
Roland, I am not sure what board games you are used to playing but in a game that has minis and changing conditions and characters with different abilities I am not sure what you were expecting.

Descent 2nd Edition, the WoW Boardgame and the D&D Adventure games were easy enough to figure out for me. To be honest, I didn't have a go at Myth yet but it seems like they literally legt our multiple rules.
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Seth
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Shakalaka wrote:
A great game with a bad rulebook or a great rulebook with a bad game, cant have both .


I see and recognize your smilie, but it's not a great thing to have such a forgiving attitude - look at the list of top games and see how many have rulebooks that you basically can't play from. I don't think you'll find any. I find it painfully obvious that then-Mercs never gave this game with this rulebook to people who had never played it and asked them to learn it, a part of design that is recommended by almost every poster in the game design forum here.

jfoerst wrote:
Roland, I am not sure what board games you are used to playing but in a game that has minis and changing conditions and characters with different abilities I am not sure what you were expecting.


Jonathan, I am not sure what board games you are used to playing, but just off the top of my head I have been able to read the rulebook and immediately play the following games that fulfill your qualifications:
- Descent 2E
- Anima Tactics
- Dungeon Command
- Warhammer 40,000

My friend and I gave up halfway through our first play of Myth today after the third thing we tried to look up in the rulebook that simply didn't exist. I expect better than that.
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Matt Barnes
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It is sad to see so many complaints about this, going to be pretty rough when I get the game in apparently.

I thought the rules were out to the public early on? Was there not a lot of feedback, or did they not take anything into consideration? Having a rulebook that no one else has even looked at seems like a pretty rookie mistake.

That is the probably the one thing I would do many times if I made a board game ... the rulebook can literally make or break the game.

Hopefully they just send us a new one with the second shipment.
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Kevin Outlaw
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MattVid wrote:
I thought the rules were out to the public early on? Was there not a lot of feedback, or did they not take anything into consideration? Having a rulebook that no one else has even looked at seems like a pretty rookie mistake.


A rough version of the rules was available, and I sent my feedback on that, as I know other backers did. There were some big problems that I noticed (facing wasn't addressed anywhere, lots of muddled explanations, multiple terms for the same thing), but I have no idea if they addressed those issues in the final copy.

However, the version we saw was not finished by a long way, and it is impossible for people who have never played the game to pick up on missing rules, because they do not know those rules are supposed to be there. Additionally, without the player boards, darkness track, and cards, it is very difficult to see how everything is hanging together.

It is a big shame, but hopefully they will rectify the rules.
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Eric Weidus
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Most things make sense in the rulebook. The problem is the book says how something works, but does very little in telling you how to play the game. It is possible to read the rulebook and not try to play the game and think the rules are crisp and easy to read. Once we started trying to actually play the game, we went crosseyed fairly quickly.

And how do you notice while proofreading that a status effect(poison) was completely left out. You only notice that stuff when you get poisoned and have no clue what it does.
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Magic Pink
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The rulebook is bad but the game is nowhere near UNPLAYABLE out of the box.

If you've been playing games for 40 years you won't have a problem.
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Magic Pink
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
MattVid wrote:
I thought the rules were out to the public early on? Was there not a lot of feedback, or did they not take anything into consideration? Having a rulebook that no one else has even looked at seems like a pretty rookie mistake.


A rough version of the rules was available, and I sent my feedback on that, as I know other backers did. There were some big problems that I noticed (facing wasn't addressed anywhere, lots of muddled explanations, multiple terms for the same thing), but I have no idea if they addressed those issues in the final copy.

However, the version we saw was not finished by a long way, and it is impossible for people who have never played the game to pick up on missing rules, because they do not know those rules are supposed to be there. Additionally, without the player boards, darkness track, and cards, it is very difficult to see how everything is hanging together.

It is a big shame, but hopefully they will rectify the rules.


The version I saw two months before the game shipped was the exact one I got in the box.
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John Austin
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I've asked in other threads but didn't see an answer - are all these issues with the rulebook and cards going to be in the retail version of Myth (coming out in a month or so I believe) or will they be corrected by then? Or will it require a reprint (I think thats the term).
 
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Magic Pink
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spirity wrote:
I've asked in other threads but didn't see an answer - are all these issues with the rulebook and cards going to be in the retail version of Myth (coming out in a month or so I believe) or will they be corrected by then?


They'll be in the retail version almost assuredly. But MERCS is going to have a rulebook that is regularly updated available to download so it's only a temporary problem.
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Kevin Outlaw
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Magic Pink wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
MattVid wrote:
I thought the rules were out to the public early on? Was there not a lot of feedback, or did they not take anything into consideration? Having a rulebook that no one else has even looked at seems like a pretty rookie mistake.


A rough version of the rules was available, and I sent my feedback on that, as I know other backers did. There were some big problems that I noticed (facing wasn't addressed anywhere, lots of muddled explanations, multiple terms for the same thing), but I have no idea if they addressed those issues in the final copy.

However, the version we saw was not finished by a long way, and it is impossible for people who have never played the game to pick up on missing rules, because they do not know those rules are supposed to be there. Additionally, without the player boards, darkness track, and cards, it is very difficult to see how everything is hanging together.

It is a big shame, but hopefully they will rectify the rules.


The version I saw two months before the game shipped was the exact one I got in the box.


I assume you mean the text was exactly the same, because the version they sent out was only 25 pages long and didn't have any images.

It will be interesting actually - I still have that version, plus my heavily annotated copy. Of course, it is going to be a while before I actually have the game.

EDIT: I see you said the version you saw two months before the game shipped. My bad. Yes, I wouldn't expect that one to be different to the one in the box. However, I would expect a significant difference between the version they sent out for backers to edit at the end of the campaign to provide feedback on compared to the one in the box.
 
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Freelance Police
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Paperbag wrote:
Most things make sense in the rulebook. The problem is the book says how something works, but does very little in telling you how to play the game. It is possible to read the rulebook and not try to play the game and think the rules are crisp and easy to read. Once we started trying to actually play the game, we went crosseyed fairly quickly.


Oof. Rulebooks often have a dichotomy of being either a tutorial or a reference guide, go blame AD&D for *that* decision. I'd like to hope that with the next MYTH KS, we could have a rulebook that *teaches* us the game, similar to Eldritch Horror's "Your First Game" rulebook, or maybe even the Avalon Hill "Programmed Scenarios". This tutorial rulebook would also include solo quests, because they both would help the alpha gamer learn the game and many BGG'ers want solo play.
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John Austin
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Magic Pink wrote:
spirity wrote:
I've asked in other threads but didn't see an answer - are all these issues with the rulebook and cards going to be in the retail version of Myth (coming out in a month or so I believe) or will they be corrected by then?


They'll be in the retail version almost assuredly. But MERCS is going to have a rulebook that is regularly updated available to download so it's only a temporary problem.


Ok thank you.
 
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Doc Bullseye
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Wolvercote wrote:
which I'm now beginning to regret.


nobody tell him about the metal torchbearer
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Mike Robinson
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KnobDoctor wrote:

nobody tell him about the metal torchbearer


Oh, the humanity!
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Seth
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Magic Pink wrote:
The rulebook is bad but the game is nowhere near UNPLAYABLE out of the box.

If you've been playing games for 40 years you won't have a problem.


That is a matter of opinion and how much you are willing to assume in order to play a game. When the basic enemy can poison you and that status effect is not defined in the rulebook, you can assume it is damage over time (which is correctly not hyphenated), but you are then not using the rules as written - you could equally assume it causes any other variety of effects.

When there are Archer cards that tell you that ammo is required and others that tell you ammo is optional, and you can't find anywhere what the effect of choosing to use an ammo would be, what would you assume? You can just ignore the difference between the text of those cards, but you are then not playing the game as written.

I could have finished playing my game by assuming the responsibility of making up a variety of rules that the rulebook did not supply, but I have better ways to spend my time than to finish inventing someone else's game...such as playing one that has complete instructions.
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William Cunningham
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Dungeon Command! That's the comparison I was looking for the other day! Thanks for the memory jog!
 
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Mark Taraba
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Shakalaka wrote:
A great game with a bad rulebook or a great rulebook with a bad game, cant have both


Well, you can have both, but if I'm forced to pick between the two, I'd rather have a great game with a bad rulebook because the rulebook can be overcome with a revised rulebook pdf and FAQs.
 
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Shawn Hubbard
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Magic Pink wrote:
The rulebook is bad but the game is nowhere near UNPLAYABLE out of the box.

If you've been playing games for 40 years you won't have a problem.


And if you played Descent 1 or 2 it had similar out of the box issues. Playable yes, but a number of questions made worse by the fact that it's competitive so players are a lot less forgiving.
 
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