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Subject: Fall Guy Timing rss

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Lysander
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So fall guy states

Trash: prevent another installed resource from being trashed.

How does this timing work? Say the corp starts its turn and the runner is tagged.

Scenario A: The runner must immediately trash Fall Guy and designate a resource. It may not be trashed for the entirety of the corp's turn.

Scenario B: The corp pays 2c and designates a resource to trash. The runner then uses Fall Guy.

Pretty sure it's A, but making sure.
 
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James W
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Lysander1 wrote:
So fall guy states

Trash: prevent another installed resource from being trashed.

How does this timing work? Say the corp starts its turn and the runner is tagged.

Scenario A: The runner must immediately trash Fall Guy and designate a resource. It may not be trashed for the entirety of the corp's turn.

Scenario B: The corp pays 2c and designates a resource to trash. The runner then uses Fall Guy.

Pretty sure it's A, but making sure.


Of your two scenarios, Scenario B is much more likely to be correct. Prevent/avoid is always in response to something happening.

Scenario A does not make any sense whatsoever.
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Chris Wood
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Fall Guy is a prevent effect

Quote:
Some card abilities use the words “prevent” or “avoid.” Prevent or avoid effects are the only effects which can disrupt another effect. A prevent or avoid effect states what it is preventing or avoiding, and an effect that is prevented or avoided is not resolved. Prevent or avoid effects can be triggered whenever the effect they are preventing or avoiding is resolving.


So Scenario B is correct.
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Lysander
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So the corp can use his next click to trash the same resource he attempted to trash the first time?shake
 
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El-ad David Amir
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Scenario B is correct.

And yes, the Corp can pay 2 credits again to trash the resource anyway.

Fall Guy has more, better uses, though.
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Alejandro G.
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Just use Freelancer.

Curious as to what lead you to believe it might be A. Because I don't see any place on the card that would lead people to believe that you can prevent the trashing for an entire turn.
 
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Lysander
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Well it still has some uses in a dedicated DLR deck.

-Siphon to zero, mill 3x
-Corp clicks twice for money, DLR trashing is prevented
-Runner mills four more times

Rinse and repeat if the runner has multiple DLRs or Fall Guys
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Chris Wood
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Lysander1 wrote:
So the corp can use his next click to trash the same resource he attempted to trash the first time?shake


Yes, just like a runner can re-attempt to break a subroutine prevented by Tyr's Hand.

Prevent effects aren't exactly new.
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Lysander
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Quote:
Because I don't see any place on the card that would lead people to believe that you can prevent the trashing for an entire turn.


I was trying to hope the card is better than it really is, for Anarch's sake. And for some reason I always forget there's a timing window for prevent effects.
 
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Alejandro G.
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Taloncarde wrote:
Lysander1 wrote:
So the corp can use his next click to trash the same resource he attempted to trash the first time?shake


Yes, just like a runner can re-attempt to break a subroutine prevented by Tyr's Hand.

Prevent effects aren't exactly new.


Also, Sacrificial Construct.

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Chris Wood
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Lysander1 wrote:
Quote:
Because I don't see any place on the card that would lead people to believe that you can prevent the trashing for an entire turn.


I was trying to hope the card is better than it really is, for Anarch's sake. And for some reason I always forget there's a timing window for prevent effects.


Making the corp waste 2 clicks and 4 credits to trash a resource isn't bad.

edit:

Or if only there were cards that let you take all of the corps money, but tagged you. Meaning corp would have to take 2 credits and could only trash one card on their turn. Say, Account Siphon or Vamp? Might be a good card for people who like to do such things, but wish they could play resources.
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Aaron Freeman
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The cards not bad. It also prevents trashing of The Source and NACH.

Also, making the corp pay four and two of their precious clicks to trash a 0 cost and another 0 or 1 cost resource is not bad at all in my book. I am looking forward to using the card in tag-me Anarch.
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Nushura
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StarSix wrote:
The cards not bad. It also prevents trashing of The Source and NACH.

Also, making the corp pay four and two of their precious clicks to trash a 0 cost and another 0 or 1 cost resource is not bad at all in my book. I am looking forward to using the card in tag-me Anarch.


Well, this card does not make them pay 4 and 2 clicks. This card adds 2 credits and 1 click to the usual trash cost. Taking into account that you pay 2 clicks to draw and install...it is not such a great deal.

Don't get me wrong, I do not think it is a bad card... but I think its main purpose was what you initially said (prevent the Source or similar cards from being trashed).
 
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Artifice Knight
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The corp only has 3 clicks to work with though. Depending on *how* you managed to get trace, fall guy can turn a bad loss to something good.

Recently, I was playing against an NBN deck with my (rather resource heavy) Shaper deck. They installed a breaking news on a San San grid, advanced, and scored it. With 2 tags now, they had a click to play freelancer to kill my newly installed daily casts and my Kati Jones with 6 creds on her.

With Fall Guy, that would've meant I could've saved either one. If they hadn't had Freelancer, I wouldn't have lost anything. And protecting those two would've definitely taking the teeth out of the sudden loss of help.
 
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Kester J
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Bonus ridiculous shenanigans question:

-If the corp plays Freelancer to trash Fall Guy plus one other resource (let's say it's Aesop, as an example), can you trash the targeted Fall Guy to prevent loss of Asesop, thereby losing only one resource?

I think this is probably legal, no, silly as it is?
 
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Tim Meng
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Kester wrote:
Bonus ridiculous shenanigans question:

-If the corp plays Freelancer to trash Fall Guy plus one other resource (let's say it's Aesop, as an example), can you trash the targeted Fall Guy to prevent loss of Asesop, thereby losing only one resource?

I think this is probably legal, no, silly as it is?


Based on the way Lukas ruled Ares Project vs. Sacrificial Construct, I'd say that's correct.

... unless he overturned that ruling and I missed the post.
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Dirk Tebben
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Kester wrote:
Bonus ridiculous shenanigans question:

-If the corp plays Freelancer to trash Fall Guy plus one other resource (let's say it's Aesop, as an example), can you trash the targeted Fall Guy to prevent loss of Asesop, thereby losing only one resource?

I think this is probably legal, no, silly as it is?


Yes. It's basically the same scenario as the Project Ares/Sacrificial Construct ruling. The trashing is simultaneous, but prevent effects interrupt the usual timing, so the runner could sacrifice Fall Guy to protect Aesop's.

ninja
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Kester J
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Thanks both! I'd missed the ruling on the analagous Sacrificial Construct situation, so that helps a lot.
 
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Anton R.
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xpiredsodapop wrote:
Just use Freelancer.



I think Freelancer into FallGuy + something else will trash only fallguy, like Project Ares does.
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Cedric Bertolini
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Makes me wonder why the trashing from Character Assassination cannot be prevented.
 
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Chris Wood
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Alsciende wrote:
Makes me wonder why the trashing from Character Assassination cannot be prevented.


It's hard to pin someone else for your actions when your face is plastered all over NBN world news?
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Cedric Bertolini
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Taloncarde wrote:
Alsciende wrote:
Makes me wonder why the trashing from Character Assassination cannot be prevented.


It's hard to pin someone else for your actions when your face is plastered all over NBN world news?

Is it? :-) I thought politicians did that all the time!
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Andrew Keddie
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Alsciende wrote:
Taloncarde wrote:
Alsciende wrote:
Makes me wonder why the trashing from Character Assassination cannot be prevented.


It's hard to pin someone else for your actions when your face is plastered all over NBN world news?

Is it? :-) I thought politicians did that all the time!


Not quite the same situation

And besides, politicians lose supporters just like anyone else does through a dedicated enough smear campaign.

EDIT: A politician Runner... Quick! To variants!
 
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C Spiekerman
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... another somewhat related question/statement

I assume Freelancer/Fallguy interaction would follow the Agg. Sec./Sac.Cons. precedent.

That is,
First: Freelancer -> corp must first specify two resources to trash
Second: Fall Guy can save one

If Corp tried to be cute and designate the same resource twice for trashing then FallGuy would still save it.

Right?
 
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Chris Wood
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Actually from latest FAQ on Aggressive Sec

Quote:
The Corporation cannot
choose to trash the same
program more than once.


So I would assume Freelancer follows the same logic
 
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